6 ms·

Feathered dinosaur tail found in amber (2016)

126 points by zuhayeer 7y ago

labster 7y ago
(2016) Still cool.
glenvdb 7y ago
In a time when dinosaurs and birds both co-existed how do they tell the difference between dinosaur feathers and bird feathers? What are the features of feathers between these species that differentiate them?
- GolDDranks 7y ago
  Essentially (or, "cladistically"), birds _are_ dinosaurs, and even if you restrict yourself to "non-modern dinosaurs", where do you draw the line?
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    Well maybe. There were a class of very birdlike creatures called enantiornithines which I suspect are a completely different line and quite possibly not dinosaurs, however I've dug around before and am unable to find any precise statement of their genetic relationship to extant birds (and therefore their relationship to true dinosaurs). Enantiornithines had the wing joint inverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiornithes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiornithes "Enantiornitheans are thought to have left no living descendants ... the articulation of the shoulder bones – which has a concave-convex socket joint that is the reverse of that of modern birds" If anyone can elucidate, please do. At the bottom of the article is a link to another article on these creatures https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36651471 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36651471 "Ancient birds' wings preserved in amber"
- kstenerud 7y ago
  It's in the article, along with photographs and CT scans: "We can be sure of the source because the vertebrae are not fused into a rod or pygostyle as in modern birds and their closest relatives," he explained. "Instead, the tail is long and flexible, with keels of feathers running down each side." ... The feathers lack the well-developed central shaft - a rachis - known from modern birds. Their structure suggests that the two finest tiers of branching in modern feathers, known as barbs and barbules, arose before the rachis formed.
- mutatio 7y ago
  https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html
holoduke 7y ago
Would it theoretically be possible to extract DNA from these samples or are is that out of the question ever in any situation?
- rob74 7y ago
  "Jurassic Park" anyone? Ok, this particular dinosaur wouldn't be particularly awe-inspiring, but still... :)
- WhiteSage 7y ago
  Yes, but DNA is very fragmented and degraded. All you can hope to do with it is some DNA phylogeny.
- LessDmesg 7y ago
  Restoring the full sequence is going to be like putting together a paper book that's been through a shredder. And if you're thinking about cloning a dinosaur, that's even harder because you'd need to recreate exactly the same environment as in that specie's egg, otherwise the embryo won't survive to hatching. Not impossible, but extremely hard.
  - ramraj07 7y ago
    Restoring the full sequence of a proper sample after modern sequencing methods is already as convoluted as putting together a book after it's been through the shredder. Restoring the full sequence of damaged DNA (any that's left) after millions of years is like trying to do the same after the shredder stuff has been burned
- echelon 7y ago
  Impossible. DNA has an estimated half life of only 521 years [1]. It's a fairly reactive molecule due to the number of reactions it has to undergo to fulfill its purpose. I believe the T-Rex soft tissue [2,3] that has been discovered contained short polypeptide sequences. You can infer the codons from this information, but that elides promotor, signaling, non-coding, etc regions that will be of massive importance. Not to mention you won't get much data in the first place. Hundreds of years from now, any dinosaurs we recreate will be the result of creative genetic engineering and imagination. [1] https://www.nature.com/news/dna-has-a-521-year-half-life-1.11555 https://www.nature.com/news/dna-has-a-521-year-half-life-1.1... [2] https://m.phys.org/news/2019-11-mechanisms-soft-tissue-protein-tyrannosaurus.html https://m.phys.org/news/2019-11-mechanisms-soft-tissue-prote... [3] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shock...
apacheCamel 7y ago
Feathers on a dinosaur make them a lot less scary IMO, even the one in the artist impression is kind of cute, but I know (if I was around) seeing a very toothy bird-like creature live and in person might make me change my mind.
- cygx 7y ago
  https://xkcd.com/1104/ https://xkcd.com/1104/
  - giancarlostoro 7y ago
    Funny the YouTube video linked by the comic is gone.
    - kyle-rb 7y ago
      Wayback link: https://web.archive.org/web/20150401183534/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qpdk-U8fI0 https://web.archive.org/web/20150401183534/http://www.youtub...
      - giancarlostoro 7y ago
        Wow I had no idea Wayback archived YT so well.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- thdrdt 7y ago
  I also had this with the Neanderthals paintings of Tom Bjørklund. Most of the time Neanderthals are rendered as ape like beings, but he draws them as humans. This made me think completely different about Neanderthals. A list of his work: https://steemit.com/art/@cultureshock/these-neanderthal-character-studies-by-tom-bjoerklund-look-awesome https://steemit.com/art/@cultureshock/these-neanderthal-char... His website: https://www.tombjorklund.fi/ https://www.tombjorklund.fi/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tombjorklundart/ https://www.instagram.com/tombjorklundart/
pootpucker 7y ago
"Dino DNA"

126 points by zuhayeer 7y ago

(2016) Still cool.

In a time when dinosaurs and birds both co-existed how do they tell the difference between dinosaur feathers and bird feathers? What are the features of feathers between these species that differentiate them?

GolDDranks 7y ago
Essentially (or, "cladistically"), birds _are_ dinosaurs, and even if you restrict yourself to "non-modern dinosaurs", where do you draw the line?
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  Well maybe. There were a class of very birdlike creatures called enantiornithines which I suspect are a completely different line and quite possibly not dinosaurs, however I've dug around before and am unable to find any precise statement of their genetic relationship to extant birds (and therefore their relationship to true dinosaurs). Enantiornithines had the wing joint inverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiornithes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiornithes "Enantiornitheans are thought to have left no living descendants ... the articulation of the shoulder bones – which has a concave-convex socket joint that is the reverse of that of modern birds" If anyone can elucidate, please do. At the bottom of the article is a link to another article on these creatures https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36651471 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36651471 "Ancient birds' wings preserved in amber"
kstenerud 7y ago
It's in the article, along with photographs and CT scans: "We can be sure of the source because the vertebrae are not fused into a rod or pygostyle as in modern birds and their closest relatives," he explained. "Instead, the tail is long and flexible, with keels of feathers running down each side." ... The feathers lack the well-developed central shaft - a rachis - known from modern birds. Their structure suggests that the two finest tiers of branching in modern feathers, known as barbs and barbules, arose before the rachis formed.
mutatio 7y ago
https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html

holoduke 7y ago

Would it theoretically be possible to extract DNA from these samples or are is that out of the question ever in any situation?

rob74 7y ago
"Jurassic Park" anyone? Ok, this particular dinosaur wouldn't be particularly awe-inspiring, but still... :)
WhiteSage 7y ago
Yes, but DNA is very fragmented and degraded. All you can hope to do with it is some DNA phylogeny.
LessDmesg 7y ago
Restoring the full sequence is going to be like putting together a paper book that's been through a shredder. And if you're thinking about cloning a dinosaur, that's even harder because you'd need to recreate exactly the same environment as in that specie's egg, otherwise the embryo won't survive to hatching. Not impossible, but extremely hard.
- ramraj07 7y ago
  Restoring the full sequence of a proper sample after modern sequencing methods is already as convoluted as putting together a book after it's been through the shredder. Restoring the full sequence of damaged DNA (any that's left) after millions of years is like trying to do the same after the shredder stuff has been burned
echelon 7y ago
Impossible. DNA has an estimated half life of only 521 years [1]. It's a fairly reactive molecule due to the number of reactions it has to undergo to fulfill its purpose. I believe the T-Rex soft tissue [2,3] that has been discovered contained short polypeptide sequences. You can infer the codons from this information, but that elides promotor, signaling, non-coding, etc regions that will be of massive importance. Not to mention you won't get much data in the first place. Hundreds of years from now, any dinosaurs we recreate will be the result of creative genetic engineering and imagination. [1] https://www.nature.com/news/dna-has-a-521-year-half-life-1.11555 https://www.nature.com/news/dna-has-a-521-year-half-life-1.1... [2] https://m.phys.org/news/2019-11-mechanisms-soft-tissue-protein-tyrannosaurus.html https://m.phys.org/news/2019-11-mechanisms-soft-tissue-prote... [3] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shock...

apacheCamel 7y ago

Feathers on a dinosaur make them a lot less scary IMO, even the one in the artist impression is kind of cute, but I know (if I was around) seeing a very toothy bird-like creature live and in person might make me change my mind.

cygx 7y ago
https://xkcd.com/1104/ https://xkcd.com/1104/
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  Funny the YouTube video linked by the comic is gone.
  - kyle-rb 7y ago
    Wayback link: https://web.archive.org/web/20150401183534/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qpdk-U8fI0 https://web.archive.org/web/20150401183534/http://www.youtub...
    - giancarlostoro 7y ago
      Wow I had no idea Wayback archived YT so well.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
thdrdt 7y ago
I also had this with the Neanderthals paintings of Tom Bjørklund. Most of the time Neanderthals are rendered as ape like beings, but he draws them as humans. This made me think completely different about Neanderthals. A list of his work: https://steemit.com/art/@cultureshock/these-neanderthal-character-studies-by-tom-bjoerklund-look-awesome https://steemit.com/art/@cultureshock/these-neanderthal-char... His website: https://www.tombjorklund.fi/ https://www.tombjorklund.fi/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tombjorklundart/ https://www.instagram.com/tombjorklundart/

pootpucker 7y ago

"Dino DNA"