13 ms·

America’s First Amphetamine Epidemic 1929–1971 (2008)

77 points by tintinnabula 7y ago

ydb 7y ago
Most people would think the government is responsible for all these drug epidemics: the DEA jailing minorities on minor infractions or the CIA hustling cocaine between countries (look it up). But really the true culprit is just the youth, and always has been. Ever since the early 1900s traditional family values and social community/cohesion has been seriously on decline. Say what you will about Ted Kaczynski, but his essay/book Industrial Society and its Future is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (strange I know coming from a Christian woman). But look at it this way: people resort to drugs because reality sucks. Why does reality suck? Well, we live in a society, and this very society (and its implicit social network) causes our youth to suffer. Just look at how much the new Joker movie resonated with kids, teenagers and young adults! Heck, my niece of 12 years was itching to put on a mask and march in the street after she walked out of the theater. It was terrifying.
- etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
  I don't really completely agree with this argument but I'd like to remind the HN community not to downvote simply because you disagree. I would argue that drug addiction is affecting older adults much more severely than youth. I can definitely agree that social cohesion in America has been somewhat awful for generations.
  - tokai 7y ago
    Please don't believe you know why others down vote. I down voted because it's a comment with unsubstantiated claims, only tangible related to the article.
  - freddie_mercury 7y ago
    > I don't really completely agree with this argument but I'd like to remind the HN community not to downvote simply because you disagree. pg has explicitly said that downvotes on Hacker News can be used for disagreement. "Downvotes to express disagreement are part of the ethos of this site; it's a norm Paul Graham established almost a decade ago."
    - Clubber 7y ago
      It's not a great idea and here's why: it's an almost sure way to create an echo chamber. How? The point system is the gamification of the forums. It's designed to spur conversation while also an attempt at self moderation. When someone posts a controversial but trailblazing comment, like say "Scrum Agile doesn't work very well for their company and here's why," the barrage of downvotes from the orthodoxy makes that person lose points and disincentivizes them from making any more controversial posts (unless they just don't give a damn). Ergo, the conversation gravitates towards whatever the herd thinks is best. It's rewarding conventional thinking and discouraging unorthodox thought, which is poison to any technological discussion. Technology and in fact progress itself was built on questioning and even destroying the conventional.
      - marcoseliziario 7y ago
        Yes. Probably by design.
    - dang 7y ago
      That quote is from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17613243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17613243, which was tptacek's. But yes: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=16131314&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
  - sneak 7y ago
    GP is making a bigoted argument with supporting data from a serial killer. If I were to downvote because I disagree with their argument, I would have to downvote twice. Let’s stop discussing voting now, though. I agree with the mods here that it makes for very boring reading.
- rayhendricks 7y ago
  I would disagree that today’s youth are suffering because ‘reality sucks’. If anything the youth of today have it better than ever before. In 1950 [at least in the USA] a youth would not have had access to reliable information on possible career choices and outcomes apart from maybe a school counselor, now that information is available instantly on the internet. Likewise reality would have really sucked had the youth had the youth been female or LGBT, as reliable contraception and abortion were not available. Likewise suicide and crises services were not as available. Now we have things like the it gets better project, texting to social hotlines. This has vastly improved the options available to the youth of today for psychological support. Of course reality will still suck for some, but it is vastly better than 50-70 years ago.
  - lainga 7y ago
    There is more to life than contraception and psychological counselling. A chance at a steady job, the ability to save money, the opportunity to start a family, the prospect of retiring with a Social Security check, and confidence in the ecological future of the planet come to mind.
    - parasubvert 7y ago
      Meanwhile new CS grads are regularly getting $170k+ annual pay packages at large tech companies. There’s a disparity of experience out there.
  - badpun 7y ago
    > I would disagree that today’s youth are suffering because ‘reality sucks’. I would agree to the degree that reality has always sucked. Life in general is hard and can be pretty miserable. It's up to an individual to build up resilience and mindset that will allow them to survive and even thrive in spite of this. Of course, having smart parents and other early influencers helps immensely.
  - badpun 7y ago
    > I would disagree that today’s youth are suffering because ‘reality sucks’. I would agree to the degree that reality has always sucked. Life is hard and can be pretty miserable. It's up to an individual to build up resilience and mindset that will allow them to survive and even thrive in spite of this. Of course, having smart parents and other early influencers helps immensely. Otherwise, it's easy to fall prey to drugs and other deviations.
- tsukurimashou 7y ago
  Youth is not the problem, and I don't agree with the other comment saying that youth has it better than previous generations. People just see all the "good things" and how "easy" it is for young people to do things they weren't able to when they were young. But understand that the young people of today have to deal with all the stupid decisions of previous generations, they have to conform to society like never before, and there is so much pressure and uncertainty about so many things (climate, political non-sense), they are being bombarded with violent and sad information all the time. I can understand why young people go to drugs to find some piece in the middle of this mess. I'm 29 and I'd gladly throw away some of the modern "progress" we made for more freedom, more privacy, and a society that doesn't flat out reject some type of people for their view, their ideas, or lifestyle which doesn't allign with our single minded society.
  - sudosteph 7y ago
    None of this is unique to our generation though. We may feel that it is because the 1900s seem impossibly far back, but our great-grandparents faced many of the same issues. Factories polluted like crazy, outright corruption in politics, newspapers filled with propaganda or outright libel, corporations owning entire towns and paying their workers with "company scrip" instead of cash to keep them perpetually indebted. Drugs and alcohol were rampant back then too. One thing that actually has immensely since then though is that society is measurably more accepting of women, people of color, LGBT people. So while we don't have everything fixed yet, I like to remember that we do have real social progress, so it's possible
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Things were not great some century ago, they were often beyond fucked and average joe's life meant nothing, nobody cared, nobody helped apart from close family, which was often not enough. Young folks are generally pretty stupid and inexperienced (duh). I know damn well, was one of those. Due to peer pressure itching to get wasted, on anything available (luckily there wasn't much). Looking desperately for approvals and doing stupid shit for 15 seconds of fame, risking getting crippled for life or even dying. Generally clueless about life, what I want from it, which direction to go. But it was OK, everybody was more or less on the same boat, so you didn't feel behind. We talk about east Europe here in 80s and 90s, there were basically no drugs apart from alcohol and nicotine and no organized crime. People had simpler ways to be miserable and waste life. These days, constant exposure to people better off than yourself leave a lot of room for desire. There is always somebody on Facebook having great time on vacation or having time of their life on other way. This phase will pass. It is part of growing up, rebellion to previous generations, feeling that all and everybody is shit. Some might get stuck there and its usually not so nice story, but that's life. It ain't supposed to be a game on easy difficulty.
- gerbilly 7y ago
  “The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” ― Socrates
  - thatoneguy 7y ago
    Not a real quote by Socrates, BTW. But by a Cambridge student in 1907. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
- sitharus 7y ago
  Joker is an R-rated film. Your 12-year-old niece being affected is to be expected, the rating is set for a reason.
rmbryan 7y ago
Definition of iatrogenic : induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures
refurb 7y ago
It’s always interesting to me how illegal drugs wax and wane in popularity. We like to blame opioid over-prescribing for the surge in opioid use, but there was also a heroin “epidemic” in the 1970’s that slowly petered out as cocaine became the focus in the 80’s.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  They are pretty similar events. Cheap opium started coming in from Southeast asia in the 70s in the wake of Vietnam. Over-prescribing led to dependency, and the higher cost and other difficulties in getting prescriptions drove many users to cheaper, more dangerous black market alternatives. (especially synthetics like Fentanyl.)
- smileysteve 7y ago
  > as cocaine became the focus in the 80’s Well, we know more about this one now, thanks Reagan and Iran-Contra.
  - blackflame 7y ago
    That cocaine didn't buy itself.
    - akiselev 7y ago
      That cocaine that people purchased didn't manufacture and distribute itself across international borders.
    - smileysteve 7y ago
      To some degrees, it did though; the market was flooded and dealers on the U.S. government take have said that they couldn't sell it fast enough.
HocusLocus 7y ago
What's next, "America's caffeine epidemic"? Interspersed with all this pedantry is a smarmy judgement towards stimulants and COMPLETE LACK of context of the times, and a lack of any societal or species context that recognizes the BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times of "Oh so bad bad we should be ashamed it's an epidemic!" There's an undercurrent here that is almost criminal. The sin is not excess, certainly at 5mg a dose. The sin is not 'euphoria', which often turns out to be psych-speak for 'a simple will to live'. What people crave with caffeine and amphetamine is mental alertness. Caffeine delivers, speed delivers more. And with that people can do, have done, incredible things. Aside from the specific physiological effects like chronically overbearing hearts that also plagues athletes, the worst mental effects of stimulants are often blamed directly on the drug -- not abusers' lack of discipline -- and result from a LACK OF or DISRUPTION OF sleep. Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.
- irscott 7y ago
  I dated someone with a meth problem for five years and would disagree with you. Meth completely changes a person's personality. I think all drugs should be legal and think humans have done amazing things with/on drugs. I've also seen this go horribly awry and witnessed some absolutely insane things from people on speed. There's a lot more to it than simply a lack of sleep. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis
  - ddorian43 7y ago
    What about cases with people using legal drugs (ritalin,adderall etc) ? Who knows what's inside meth/speed/cocaine/weed that you buy in the street ?
  - rank0 7y ago
    Not all stimulants are the same. Meth is certainly higher risk than other commonly prescribed amphetamines. Psychosis comes from abuse...from binges and lack of basic self care. Life crippling drug abuse is USUALLY a symptom of a deeper problem, rather than the problem itself.
  - 7y ago
PragmaticPulp 7y ago
Interesting read. I've always assumed that prescription drug pushing and addiction problems were a modern phenomenon, so it's interesting to read about drug companies developing and pushing addictive drugs almost a century ago.
- saalweachter 7y ago
  In addition to Coca-cola famously using coca leaves in its original recipe, 7 Up contained lithium citrate, a mood stabilizer.
  - krilly 7y ago
    Believe me when I say lithium isn't particularly enjoyable
npo9 7y ago
Do you want to reduce drug addiction? Make the world a better place. Everyone suffers so much. Loneliness, depression and anxiety and becoming more prevalent. These are increased risk factors for addiction.
- marcoseliziario 7y ago
  I've long suspected that a lot of illegal drug usage is actually an attempt on self-medication
  - kitotik 7y ago
    s/illegal// Alcohol is a very popular form of self-medication.
    - spodek 7y ago
      Also sugar. I might call industrial food in general a drug -- the refined addictive parts of plants mostly like opiates, cocaine, etc
      - cies 7y ago
        Can TV (or YT) also count? Or sex. So many ways claiming to help you to fill the void. :)
- justwalt 7y ago
  Are you familiar with the rat park experiment? You’re making claims directly supported by its findings. One of the most interesting was that happy rats who had pleasant quarters and social interaction would choose not to take drugs (morphine, iirc) even if they had used them previously. Pretty interesting stuff.
  - blackflame 7y ago
    The opposite of addiction is connection.
zafka 7y ago
One thing I hardly find documented is: what is the daily usage of the hard core users? How does it compare to the 10-60 mg daily dosages prescribed for ADHD
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  It's difficult to tell since so many street users of amphetamine are taking 200-500+mg of "street speed" per dose, which could be anywhere from 10-50%+ in purity.
- refurb 7y ago
  With high doses every day you can develop an insane tolerance to amphetamines. 500mg in a day wouldn’t be that unusual.
  - chaorace 7y ago
    Even at low, prescribed, dosages, I find myself needing to take a day or two off each week to avoid building a tolerance. I'm not sure if others experience the same thing, but I can absolutely feel the effects slipping away, even after just 10 days of continuous use.
    - AcerbicZero 7y ago
      For what its worth I've had good luck switching to Modafinil (And extra caffeine) on the weekends, to keep my tolerance down. I also like to take ~4+ day breaks every ~3 months or so, which helps a ton.
    - throwaway743 7y ago
      Same here, but found out that chelated magnesium puts a stop to this.
    - iamiam 7y ago
      I think that's a great practice and not uncommon.
  - 7y ago
ehmish 7y ago
Perhaps this is the answer to this question https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
- galaxyLogic 7y ago
  I tried to read it but didn't get the answer, I did get the good question: WTF happened in 1971? I have a dark suspicion that it has something to do with the rise of computers, of information economy. When some people can take advantage of computers and others can't that leads to income disparity.
  - rpiguy 7y ago
    Primarily the site implies moving off of the gold standard in 1971 was main trigger. This decouples the growth of money, value of assets, wages, productivity, etc. which all tracked together in the preceding thirty years.
    - mntmoss 7y ago
      The years around 1970 are one of those inflection points that is a lot like the causes of the Industrial Revolution: it can't be summed into a few easy factors. For me the defining thing is the emergence of the USA from the postwar politics and policies and into more of an assumed administrator of the globalization project, a status that it retained until just recently. Besides the information systems, international containerization standards were settled around this time and jet travel was becoming more affordable. A lot of pieces were in place to renegotiate trade and labor deals. And there was a break with numerous social policies; the calls from think-tanks to reinstate a stratified society started coming out at this time too. Big public infrastructure projects mostly died out in the 70's, and the narcotic drug trade from Mexico and the resulting "drug wars" picked up in the late 60's, conveniently just in time for amphetamenes to fall out of favor. So, the move away from gold is just one of numerous things that changed in a surpisingly short time frame.
      - galaxyLogic 7y ago
jjgreen 7y ago
When Ronald Graham, a concerned friend and fellow mathematician, bet him [Erdos] $500 that he couldn’t stay off his drug of choice for a month, Erdos accepted and easily won the challenge. When the 30 days was up, Erdos said to Graham, “You’ve showed me I’m not an addict. But I didn’t get any work done. I’d get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I’d have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You’ve set mathematics back a month.” Erdos resumed taking amphetamines and did so for every day of his life until his death 17 years later. https://turningpointtreatmentcenter.com/why-are-intelligent-people-more-likely-to-abuse-drugs/ https://turningpointtreatmentcenter.com/why-are-intelligent-...
- philwelch 7y ago
  I wonder if Erdos just had undiagnosed adult ADHD and just happened to have been unintentionally treating it.
- desks_dos 7y ago
  Does this amphetamine use constitute abuse? Drug abuse is typically defined as use that creates negative effects to the person's social and/or personal health. It seems to me his drug use gave him the ability to work at a high level and allowed him to derive self-worth from that work. He was also able to discontinue the drug use at will. Even if there were some negative health side-effects, I wonder if abuse should be the term used here.
  - LocalH 7y ago
    "Use" vs "abuse" is generally an ideological choice, not really related to the actual use of a substance. If someone uses the word "abuse" in situations like that, it's clear that they are a prohibitionist, to whom all use is abuse. Of course, egregious examples can very well be classed as abuse. But if someone classifies examples like the one you reference as abuse, then they're a prohibitionist, plain and simple.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
throwaway141851 7y ago
(throwaway just in case, although i do not keep it a secret from friends) tl;dr; No, amphetamines are not pleasant/euphoric for everyone. Not everyone get high/wired/"sped up" on it. Not a wonder drug for everyone. May help with depression induced by anxiety induced by not getting shit done (not necessarily by getting something done, but instead switching attention away from things not done). My whole life I was not able to do much of mental work during the day, with my most productive time being around midnight +- 3-4 hours. I kinda just lived with it considering it being due to the way I grew up. I got my first full time job at around 25 yo (before that it was freelancing) and got hit hard with a "normal" schedule (be at work at 8am, leave office at 5pm, try to fall asleep at 11pm to be ready to wake at 7am next day). That was a time I started drinking coffee. It used to give me goosebumps, even at a small sip from a typical office low-end brewing machine. Did not really helped much, but I think it gave me that initial boost and I stuck with it. Nowadays I almost never drink tea (used to be my exclusive brewed beverage) and mostly drink coffee. Fast forward in my earlier 30ties. I get quite regularly severe depression-like (never diagnosed) periods. Trying different things, reading a lot online. Eventually meeting with psychiatrist explaining what is going on (can't do stuff during the day, getting depressed quite regularly about it, bunch of other shit) suspecting all of that causing anxiety which metamorphosing into depression. Honestly, I wasn't quite sure if it is true physiological condition or just some period in my life where my habits and life stage got in conflicts with each others. I read about ADHD and it seemed quite familiar. I also considered bi-polar condition, but psychiatrist ruled it out. As for ADHD, psychiatrist was very reluctant to write such a diagnose given that I had relatively good life (good income, lack of destructive impulsive actions affecting life quality, family, job, etc). He started me at 5mg extended release. It did literally nothing. Over months trying he bumped it to 25mg XR and after that failed to produce any noticeable effect, he suggested to try 20mg instant release twice a day. Safe long-term maintenance dose accordingly to FDA is 70mg. At that point I certainly felt some effect, but I am not quite sure it is what everyone think it feels like. First of all, very counter-intuitive - amphetamine often makes me sleepy and tired. But if I try to take a nap, I almost never can truly fall asleep. Most of the time I just end up laying in the bed with closed eyes. The whole experience doesn't feel energizing or euphoric at all. Secondly, on many days it appears to reduce anxiety about "getting something done" to the point where I did not experience my regular depression episodes this year. With instant release, I have to take it twice a day. I often forget to take second pill. Sometimes I forget to take a first one. I tried nicotine vape earlier, and i dont think i ever forgot to take vape mod with me, or keeping it full and charged. With 20mg instant release I sometimes experienced "locked down" feeling, which I found quite unpleasant. Not sure if it is that "focus" feeling everyone is talking about, but it certainly was different from focus I get when I am "in the zone" (the pleasant one). My solution was to break 20mg in half and take 10mg each 2hrs. Downside - I get more chances to forget about it during the day. Going higher than 20mg twice a day seems to be pointless, as I already prefer to break 20mg twice a day to 10mg four times a day. It also raises blood pressure noticeably, and I would expect higher dose will do it even more. Effects of it are certainly not pleasant enough for me to even consider taking it recreationally. But it seems to help with depression/anxiety episodes - so far one year, will see how it will feel next spring, as it is the time I had the most of these episodes. So it seems this crutch is helping me somewhat.

77 points by tintinnabula 7y ago

ydb 7y ago

Most people would think the government is responsible for all these drug epidemics: the DEA jailing minorities on minor infractions or the CIA hustling cocaine between countries (look it up). But really the true culprit is just the youth, and always has been. Ever since the early 1900s traditional family values and social community/cohesion has been seriously on decline. Say what you will about Ted Kaczynski, but his essay/book Industrial Society and its Future is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (strange I know coming from a Christian woman). But look at it this way: people resort to drugs because reality sucks. Why does reality suck? Well, we live in a society, and this very society (and its implicit social network) causes our youth to suffer. Just look at how much the new Joker movie resonated with kids, teenagers and young adults! Heck, my niece of 12 years was itching to put on a mask and march in the street after she walked out of the theater. It was terrifying.

etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
I don't really completely agree with this argument but I'd like to remind the HN community not to downvote simply because you disagree. I would argue that drug addiction is affecting older adults much more severely than youth. I can definitely agree that social cohesion in America has been somewhat awful for generations.
- tokai 7y ago
  Please don't believe you know why others down vote. I down voted because it's a comment with unsubstantiated claims, only tangible related to the article.
- freddie_mercury 7y ago
  > I don't really completely agree with this argument but I'd like to remind the HN community not to downvote simply because you disagree. pg has explicitly said that downvotes on Hacker News can be used for disagreement. "Downvotes to express disagreement are part of the ethos of this site; it's a norm Paul Graham established almost a decade ago."
  - Clubber 7y ago
    It's not a great idea and here's why: it's an almost sure way to create an echo chamber. How? The point system is the gamification of the forums. It's designed to spur conversation while also an attempt at self moderation. When someone posts a controversial but trailblazing comment, like say "Scrum Agile doesn't work very well for their company and here's why," the barrage of downvotes from the orthodoxy makes that person lose points and disincentivizes them from making any more controversial posts (unless they just don't give a damn). Ergo, the conversation gravitates towards whatever the herd thinks is best. It's rewarding conventional thinking and discouraging unorthodox thought, which is poison to any technological discussion. Technology and in fact progress itself was built on questioning and even destroying the conventional.
    - marcoseliziario 7y ago
      Yes. Probably by design.
  - dang 7y ago
    That quote is from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17613243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17613243, which was tptacek's. But yes: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=16131314&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- sneak 7y ago
  GP is making a bigoted argument with supporting data from a serial killer. If I were to downvote because I disagree with their argument, I would have to downvote twice. Let’s stop discussing voting now, though. I agree with the mods here that it makes for very boring reading.
rayhendricks 7y ago
I would disagree that today’s youth are suffering because ‘reality sucks’. If anything the youth of today have it better than ever before. In 1950 [at least in the USA] a youth would not have had access to reliable information on possible career choices and outcomes apart from maybe a school counselor, now that information is available instantly on the internet. Likewise reality would have really sucked had the youth had the youth been female or LGBT, as reliable contraception and abortion were not available. Likewise suicide and crises services were not as available. Now we have things like the it gets better project, texting to social hotlines. This has vastly improved the options available to the youth of today for psychological support. Of course reality will still suck for some, but it is vastly better than 50-70 years ago.
- lainga 7y ago
  There is more to life than contraception and psychological counselling. A chance at a steady job, the ability to save money, the opportunity to start a family, the prospect of retiring with a Social Security check, and confidence in the ecological future of the planet come to mind.
  - parasubvert 7y ago
    Meanwhile new CS grads are regularly getting $170k+ annual pay packages at large tech companies. There’s a disparity of experience out there.
- badpun 7y ago
  > I would disagree that today’s youth are suffering because ‘reality sucks’. I would agree to the degree that reality has always sucked. Life in general is hard and can be pretty miserable. It's up to an individual to build up resilience and mindset that will allow them to survive and even thrive in spite of this. Of course, having smart parents and other early influencers helps immensely.
- badpun 7y ago
  > I would disagree that today’s youth are suffering because ‘reality sucks’. I would agree to the degree that reality has always sucked. Life is hard and can be pretty miserable. It's up to an individual to build up resilience and mindset that will allow them to survive and even thrive in spite of this. Of course, having smart parents and other early influencers helps immensely. Otherwise, it's easy to fall prey to drugs and other deviations.
tsukurimashou 7y ago
Youth is not the problem, and I don't agree with the other comment saying that youth has it better than previous generations. People just see all the "good things" and how "easy" it is for young people to do things they weren't able to when they were young. But understand that the young people of today have to deal with all the stupid decisions of previous generations, they have to conform to society like never before, and there is so much pressure and uncertainty about so many things (climate, political non-sense), they are being bombarded with violent and sad information all the time. I can understand why young people go to drugs to find some piece in the middle of this mess. I'm 29 and I'd gladly throw away some of the modern "progress" we made for more freedom, more privacy, and a society that doesn't flat out reject some type of people for their view, their ideas, or lifestyle which doesn't allign with our single minded society.
- sudosteph 7y ago
  None of this is unique to our generation though. We may feel that it is because the 1900s seem impossibly far back, but our great-grandparents faced many of the same issues. Factories polluted like crazy, outright corruption in politics, newspapers filled with propaganda or outright libel, corporations owning entire towns and paying their workers with "company scrip" instead of cash to keep them perpetually indebted. Drugs and alcohol were rampant back then too. One thing that actually has immensely since then though is that society is measurably more accepting of women, people of color, LGBT people. So while we don't have everything fixed yet, I like to remember that we do have real social progress, so it's possible
saiya-jin 7y ago
Things were not great some century ago, they were often beyond fucked and average joe's life meant nothing, nobody cared, nobody helped apart from close family, which was often not enough. Young folks are generally pretty stupid and inexperienced (duh). I know damn well, was one of those. Due to peer pressure itching to get wasted, on anything available (luckily there wasn't much). Looking desperately for approvals and doing stupid shit for 15 seconds of fame, risking getting crippled for life or even dying. Generally clueless about life, what I want from it, which direction to go. But it was OK, everybody was more or less on the same boat, so you didn't feel behind. We talk about east Europe here in 80s and 90s, there were basically no drugs apart from alcohol and nicotine and no organized crime. People had simpler ways to be miserable and waste life. These days, constant exposure to people better off than yourself leave a lot of room for desire. There is always somebody on Facebook having great time on vacation or having time of their life on other way. This phase will pass. It is part of growing up, rebellion to previous generations, feeling that all and everybody is shit. Some might get stuck there and its usually not so nice story, but that's life. It ain't supposed to be a game on easy difficulty.
gerbilly 7y ago
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” ― Socrates
- thatoneguy 7y ago
  Not a real quote by Socrates, BTW. But by a Cambridge student in 1907. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
sitharus 7y ago
Joker is an R-rated film. Your 12-year-old niece being affected is to be expected, the rating is set for a reason.

rmbryan 7y ago

Definition of iatrogenic : induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures

refurb 7y ago

It’s always interesting to me how illegal drugs wax and wane in popularity. We like to blame opioid over-prescribing for the surge in opioid use, but there was also a heroin “epidemic” in the 1970’s that slowly petered out as cocaine became the focus in the 80’s.

Spooky23 7y ago
They are pretty similar events. Cheap opium started coming in from Southeast asia in the 70s in the wake of Vietnam. Over-prescribing led to dependency, and the higher cost and other difficulties in getting prescriptions drove many users to cheaper, more dangerous black market alternatives. (especially synthetics like Fentanyl.)
smileysteve 7y ago
> as cocaine became the focus in the 80’s Well, we know more about this one now, thanks Reagan and Iran-Contra.
- blackflame 7y ago
  That cocaine didn't buy itself.
  - akiselev 7y ago
    That cocaine that people purchased didn't manufacture and distribute itself across international borders.
  - smileysteve 7y ago
    To some degrees, it did though; the market was flooded and dealers on the U.S. government take have said that they couldn't sell it fast enough.

HocusLocus 7y ago

What's next, "America's caffeine epidemic"? Interspersed with all this pedantry is a smarmy judgement towards stimulants and COMPLETE LACK of context of the times, and a lack of any societal or species context that recognizes the BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times of "Oh so bad bad we should be ashamed it's an epidemic!" There's an undercurrent here that is almost criminal. The sin is not excess, certainly at 5mg a dose. The sin is not 'euphoria', which often turns out to be psych-speak for 'a simple will to live'. What people crave with caffeine and amphetamine is mental alertness. Caffeine delivers, speed delivers more. And with that people can do, have done, incredible things. Aside from the specific physiological effects like chronically overbearing hearts that also plagues athletes, the worst mental effects of stimulants are often blamed directly on the drug -- not abusers' lack of discipline -- and result from a LACK OF or DISRUPTION OF sleep. Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.

irscott 7y ago
I dated someone with a meth problem for five years and would disagree with you. Meth completely changes a person's personality. I think all drugs should be legal and think humans have done amazing things with/on drugs. I've also seen this go horribly awry and witnessed some absolutely insane things from people on speed. There's a lot more to it than simply a lack of sleep. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis
- ddorian43 7y ago
  What about cases with people using legal drugs (ritalin,adderall etc) ? Who knows what's inside meth/speed/cocaine/weed that you buy in the street ?
- rank0 7y ago
  Not all stimulants are the same. Meth is certainly higher risk than other commonly prescribed amphetamines. Psychosis comes from abuse...from binges and lack of basic self care. Life crippling drug abuse is USUALLY a symptom of a deeper problem, rather than the problem itself.
- 7y ago

PragmaticPulp 7y ago

Interesting read. I've always assumed that prescription drug pushing and addiction problems were a modern phenomenon, so it's interesting to read about drug companies developing and pushing addictive drugs almost a century ago.

saalweachter 7y ago
In addition to Coca-cola famously using coca leaves in its original recipe, 7 Up contained lithium citrate, a mood stabilizer.
- krilly 7y ago
  Believe me when I say lithium isn't particularly enjoyable

npo9 7y ago

Do you want to reduce drug addiction? Make the world a better place. Everyone suffers so much. Loneliness, depression and anxiety and becoming more prevalent. These are increased risk factors for addiction.

marcoseliziario 7y ago
I've long suspected that a lot of illegal drug usage is actually an attempt on self-medication
- kitotik 7y ago
  s/illegal// Alcohol is a very popular form of self-medication.
  - spodek 7y ago
    Also sugar. I might call industrial food in general a drug -- the refined addictive parts of plants mostly like opiates, cocaine, etc
    - cies 7y ago
      Can TV (or YT) also count? Or sex. So many ways claiming to help you to fill the void. :)
justwalt 7y ago
Are you familiar with the rat park experiment? You’re making claims directly supported by its findings. One of the most interesting was that happy rats who had pleasant quarters and social interaction would choose not to take drugs (morphine, iirc) even if they had used them previously. Pretty interesting stuff.
- blackflame 7y ago
  The opposite of addiction is connection.

zafka 7y ago

One thing I hardly find documented is: what is the daily usage of the hard core users? How does it compare to the 10-60 mg daily dosages prescribed for ADHD

oarabbus_ 7y ago
It's difficult to tell since so many street users of amphetamine are taking 200-500+mg of "street speed" per dose, which could be anywhere from 10-50%+ in purity.
refurb 7y ago
With high doses every day you can develop an insane tolerance to amphetamines. 500mg in a day wouldn’t be that unusual.
- chaorace 7y ago
  Even at low, prescribed, dosages, I find myself needing to take a day or two off each week to avoid building a tolerance. I'm not sure if others experience the same thing, but I can absolutely feel the effects slipping away, even after just 10 days of continuous use.
  - AcerbicZero 7y ago
    For what its worth I've had good luck switching to Modafinil (And extra caffeine) on the weekends, to keep my tolerance down. I also like to take ~4+ day breaks every ~3 months or so, which helps a ton.
  - throwaway743 7y ago
    Same here, but found out that chelated magnesium puts a stop to this.
  - iamiam 7y ago
    I think that's a great practice and not uncommon.
- 7y ago

ehmish 7y ago

Perhaps this is the answer to this question https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

galaxyLogic 7y ago
I tried to read it but didn't get the answer, I did get the good question: WTF happened in 1971? I have a dark suspicion that it has something to do with the rise of computers, of information economy. When some people can take advantage of computers and others can't that leads to income disparity.
- rpiguy 7y ago
  Primarily the site implies moving off of the gold standard in 1971 was main trigger. This decouples the growth of money, value of assets, wages, productivity, etc. which all tracked together in the preceding thirty years.
  - mntmoss 7y ago
    The years around 1970 are one of those inflection points that is a lot like the causes of the Industrial Revolution: it can't be summed into a few easy factors. For me the defining thing is the emergence of the USA from the postwar politics and policies and into more of an assumed administrator of the globalization project, a status that it retained until just recently. Besides the information systems, international containerization standards were settled around this time and jet travel was becoming more affordable. A lot of pieces were in place to renegotiate trade and labor deals. And there was a break with numerous social policies; the calls from think-tanks to reinstate a stratified society started coming out at this time too. Big public infrastructure projects mostly died out in the 70's, and the narcotic drug trade from Mexico and the resulting "drug wars" picked up in the late 60's, conveniently just in time for amphetamenes to fall out of favor. So, the move away from gold is just one of numerous things that changed in a surpisingly short time frame.
    - galaxyLogic 7y ago

jjgreen 7y ago

When Ronald Graham, a concerned friend and fellow mathematician, bet him [Erdos] $500 that he couldn’t stay off his drug of choice for a month, Erdos accepted and easily won the challenge. When the 30 days was up, Erdos said to Graham, “You’ve showed me I’m not an addict. But I didn’t get any work done. I’d get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I’d have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You’ve set mathematics back a month.” Erdos resumed taking amphetamines and did so for every day of his life until his death 17 years later. https://turningpointtreatmentcenter.com/why-are-intelligent-people-more-likely-to-abuse-drugs/ https://turningpointtreatmentcenter.com/why-are-intelligent-...

philwelch 7y ago
I wonder if Erdos just had undiagnosed adult ADHD and just happened to have been unintentionally treating it.
desks_dos 7y ago
Does this amphetamine use constitute abuse? Drug abuse is typically defined as use that creates negative effects to the person's social and/or personal health. It seems to me his drug use gave him the ability to work at a high level and allowed him to derive self-worth from that work. He was also able to discontinue the drug use at will. Even if there were some negative health side-effects, I wonder if abuse should be the term used here.
- LocalH 7y ago
  "Use" vs "abuse" is generally an ideological choice, not really related to the actual use of a substance. If someone uses the word "abuse" in situations like that, it's clear that they are a prohibitionist, to whom all use is abuse. Of course, egregious examples can very well be classed as abuse. But if someone classifies examples like the one you reference as abuse, then they're a prohibitionist, plain and simple.

deleted 7y ago

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throwaway141851 7y ago

(throwaway just in case, although i do not keep it a secret from friends) tl;dr; No, amphetamines are not pleasant/euphoric for everyone. Not everyone get high/wired/"sped up" on it. Not a wonder drug for everyone. May help with depression induced by anxiety induced by not getting shit done (not necessarily by getting something done, but instead switching attention away from things not done). My whole life I was not able to do much of mental work during the day, with my most productive time being around midnight +- 3-4 hours. I kinda just lived with it considering it being due to the way I grew up. I got my first full time job at around 25 yo (before that it was freelancing) and got hit hard with a "normal" schedule (be at work at 8am, leave office at 5pm, try to fall asleep at 11pm to be ready to wake at 7am next day). That was a time I started drinking coffee. It used to give me goosebumps, even at a small sip from a typical office low-end brewing machine. Did not really helped much, but I think it gave me that initial boost and I stuck with it. Nowadays I almost never drink tea (used to be my exclusive brewed beverage) and mostly drink coffee. Fast forward in my earlier 30ties. I get quite regularly severe depression-like (never diagnosed) periods. Trying different things, reading a lot online. Eventually meeting with psychiatrist explaining what is going on (can't do stuff during the day, getting depressed quite regularly about it, bunch of other shit) suspecting all of that causing anxiety which metamorphosing into depression. Honestly, I wasn't quite sure if it is true physiological condition or just some period in my life where my habits and life stage got in conflicts with each others. I read about ADHD and it seemed quite familiar. I also considered bi-polar condition, but psychiatrist ruled it out. As for ADHD, psychiatrist was very reluctant to write such a diagnose given that I had relatively good life (good income, lack of destructive impulsive actions affecting life quality, family, job, etc). He started me at 5mg extended release. It did literally nothing. Over months trying he bumped it to 25mg XR and after that failed to produce any noticeable effect, he suggested to try 20mg instant release twice a day. Safe long-term maintenance dose accordingly to FDA is 70mg. At that point I certainly felt some effect, but I am not quite sure it is what everyone think it feels like. First of all, very counter-intuitive - amphetamine often makes me sleepy and tired. But if I try to take a nap, I almost never can truly fall asleep. Most of the time I just end up laying in the bed with closed eyes. The whole experience doesn't feel energizing or euphoric at all. Secondly, on many days it appears to reduce anxiety about "getting something done" to the point where I did not experience my regular depression episodes this year. With instant release, I have to take it twice a day. I often forget to take second pill. Sometimes I forget to take a first one. I tried nicotine vape earlier, and i dont think i ever forgot to take vape mod with me, or keeping it full and charged. With 20mg instant release I sometimes experienced "locked down" feeling, which I found quite unpleasant. Not sure if it is that "focus" feeling everyone is talking about, but it certainly was different from focus I get when I am "in the zone" (the pleasant one). My solution was to break 20mg in half and take 10mg each 2hrs. Downside - I get more chances to forget about it during the day. Going higher than 20mg twice a day seems to be pointless, as I already prefer to break 20mg twice a day to 10mg four times a day. It also raises blood pressure noticeably, and I would expect higher dose will do it even more. Effects of it are certainly not pleasant enough for me to even consider taking it recreationally. But it seems to help with depression/anxiety episodes - so far one year, will see how it will feel next spring, as it is the time I had the most of these episodes. So it seems this crutch is helping me somewhat.