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Any time someone brings out the “bicyclists break laws, too” argument I’m surprised to hear what people think the laws actually are. I’ve heard people complain

by kaikai 7y ago

Any time someone brings out the “bicyclists break laws, too” argument I’m surprised to hear what people think the laws actually are. I’ve heard people complain about bicyclists taking the full lane, using the turn lane to turn left instead of crossing at a crosswalk, moving to the front of the line at stoplights, etc as broken laws. Turns out, they’re not. Just because something might slightly inconvenience you as a faster driver doesn’t make it illegal. For all the other things, like rolling through stop signs, i think we should be changing the laws to allow bicyclists to yield instead of stop rather than using them as a gotcha.

prepend 7y ago
I think we should allow cars to roll through stop signs. I think it’s comical because here’s the laws broken by cyclists every day- running stop signs, right turn on red without stopping, turning without signalling, running red lights, using phone, using headphones. I typically don’t care because bikes aren’t very dangerous to cars. But I think it’s comical that a cyclist thinks they citizen reported traffic citations is a meaningful use of anyone’s time. Some people think that being a hall monitor might be fun. I suspect it’s not fun at all, because the value created is negative. The time to capture, prepare and enforce is a net loss to society.
- mikepurvis 7y ago
  Using a phone or headphones while riding a bike is idiotic, but for these: > running stop signs, right turn on red without stopping, turning without signalling, running red lights It's important to understand a few things: a) A person on a bike is 1000x more vulnerable than a person in a car, and will definitely lose (physically, legally) if they misjudge the situation and end up getting struck. b) A person on a bike has way better situational awareness than a person in a car— they have a higher vantage point, and a very wide field of view. They're extremely well equipped to judge distances and speeds and to catch things in their peripheral vision. c) A person on a bike often faces obstacles you wouldn't be familiar with as a driver. For example, a red light that can only be changed by triggering the in-pavement car sensor or riding up on the sidewalk to push the beg button. I have such a light on my commute, and I feel that it's safe for me to look both ways and proceed when it's clear (treating the red light as a stop sign). You may disagree on this choice and call me a scofflaw cyclist, but at the end of the day I'm still basically just endangering myself. When drivers whip around a RTOR with their head hanging out the window looking at the traffic they're trying to merge with, they're endangering anyone who might step out to cross the road. All that said, if my local PD committed to broad and consistent enforcement of minor traffic violations, I would absolutely get on board and either commit to riding/walking up on the sidewalk to use the beg button or choosing a route that avoids that intersection. But as it is, they don't have any interest in enforcing any of it, so I think it's reasonable and non-hypocritical for me to make a choice that slightly improves my commute and endangers only me to a degree that I am comfortable with.
  - prepend 7y ago
    I actually am not bothered by your transgressions. But I’m not bothered by a car rolling through a stop sign either. It was more of a “pot calling kettle black scenario” that I thought was curious because a cyclist was trying to enforce a petty offense while also committing petty offenses. It’s hard for me to understand the situation of all other drivers. So I’m not going out of my way to judge them when I have incomplete information. If a driver is doing something reckless or dangerous I will try to prevent it by alerting authorities. I’m more in favor of eliminating minor traffic offenses and having police work on important issues. Or even free a community up to not have as many police and perhaps have more teachers or other civil servants.
mdorazio 7y ago
In any random week I see the following at a minimum: failure to stop at stop signs, running red lights completely, riding on the sidewalk, riding against traffic, failure to yield to pedestrians, failure to signal a turn, failure to use lights and/or reflectors after dark, illegal parking, speeding (yes, really - speed limits here are often 20 and cyclists with electric motors are often going 25+). Bicyclists should not get special rules. If you're on wheels, you obey the laws for vehicles. I say this as someone who cycles frequently - the cyclist "special privilege" mindset needs to stop.
- labawi 7y ago
  You have a point on many things, but I wouldn't agree with same rules for all. I think a lot of privilege mentality comes from cities and rules made for cars which don't transfer well to bicycles. Same maneuvers on bicycles vs. cars and bigger vehicles can be a world of difference in terms of safety. On a bicycle, I can see and hear much better, ride slower and generally stop faster. I can change directions and swerve to avoid obstacles (faster than braking), scoot to the side and generally require much less space. I can jump off a bicycle and move it away (vs. cars getting in gridlock, blocking ambulances..). Even if I get into a traffic accident, the consequences the consequences to others are likely to be much smaller (though fatalities do remain as an unlikely possibility).

by kaikai 7y ago

prepend 7y ago

I think we should allow cars to roll through stop signs. I think it’s comical because here’s the laws broken by cyclists every day- running stop signs, right turn on red without stopping, turning without signalling, running red lights, using phone, using headphones. I typically don’t care because bikes aren’t very dangerous to cars. But I think it’s comical that a cyclist thinks they citizen reported traffic citations is a meaningful use of anyone’s time. Some people think that being a hall monitor might be fun. I suspect it’s not fun at all, because the value created is negative. The time to capture, prepare and enforce is a net loss to society.

mikepurvis 7y ago
Using a phone or headphones while riding a bike is idiotic, but for these: > running stop signs, right turn on red without stopping, turning without signalling, running red lights It's important to understand a few things: a) A person on a bike is 1000x more vulnerable than a person in a car, and will definitely lose (physically, legally) if they misjudge the situation and end up getting struck. b) A person on a bike has way better situational awareness than a person in a car— they have a higher vantage point, and a very wide field of view. They're extremely well equipped to judge distances and speeds and to catch things in their peripheral vision. c) A person on a bike often faces obstacles you wouldn't be familiar with as a driver. For example, a red light that can only be changed by triggering the in-pavement car sensor or riding up on the sidewalk to push the beg button. I have such a light on my commute, and I feel that it's safe for me to look both ways and proceed when it's clear (treating the red light as a stop sign). You may disagree on this choice and call me a scofflaw cyclist, but at the end of the day I'm still basically just endangering myself. When drivers whip around a RTOR with their head hanging out the window looking at the traffic they're trying to merge with, they're endangering anyone who might step out to cross the road. All that said, if my local PD committed to broad and consistent enforcement of minor traffic violations, I would absolutely get on board and either commit to riding/walking up on the sidewalk to use the beg button or choosing a route that avoids that intersection. But as it is, they don't have any interest in enforcing any of it, so I think it's reasonable and non-hypocritical for me to make a choice that slightly improves my commute and endangers only me to a degree that I am comfortable with.
- prepend 7y ago
  I actually am not bothered by your transgressions. But I’m not bothered by a car rolling through a stop sign either. It was more of a “pot calling kettle black scenario” that I thought was curious because a cyclist was trying to enforce a petty offense while also committing petty offenses. It’s hard for me to understand the situation of all other drivers. So I’m not going out of my way to judge them when I have incomplete information. If a driver is doing something reckless or dangerous I will try to prevent it by alerting authorities. I’m more in favor of eliminating minor traffic offenses and having police work on important issues. Or even free a community up to not have as many police and perhaps have more teachers or other civil servants.

mdorazio 7y ago

In any random week I see the following at a minimum: failure to stop at stop signs, running red lights completely, riding on the sidewalk, riding against traffic, failure to yield to pedestrians, failure to signal a turn, failure to use lights and/or reflectors after dark, illegal parking, speeding (yes, really - speed limits here are often 20 and cyclists with electric motors are often going 25+). Bicyclists should not get special rules. If you're on wheels, you obey the laws for vehicles. I say this as someone who cycles frequently - the cyclist "special privilege" mindset needs to stop.

labawi 7y ago
You have a point on many things, but I wouldn't agree with same rules for all. I think a lot of privilege mentality comes from cities and rules made for cars which don't transfer well to bicycles. Same maneuvers on bicycles vs. cars and bigger vehicles can be a world of difference in terms of safety. On a bicycle, I can see and hear much better, ride slower and generally stop faster. I can change directions and swerve to avoid obstacles (faster than braking), scoot to the side and generally require much less space. I can jump off a bicycle and move it away (vs. cars getting in gridlock, blocking ambulances..). Even if I get into a traffic accident, the consequences the consequences to others are likely to be much smaller (though fatalities do remain as an unlikely possibility).