6 ms·

>For example, women were once stereotyped as not being doctors or lawyers, but that didn't seem to stop them from joining those fields en masse. If internalized

by foldr 7y ago

>For example, women were once stereotyped as not being doctors or lawyers, but that didn't seem to stop them from joining those fields en masse. If internalized stereotyping didn't matter enough to stop them then, for those fields, why does it matter now for engineering? The fields you mention made serious efforts to counter sexism. STEM hasn't, yet.

manfredo 7y ago
STEM hasn't made serious efforts to counter sexism? That starkly contrasts with my observations. For the entirety of my life (I'm over 25) that I can remember I've encountered programs and initiatives working towards getting women into STEM. All of the companies I've worked at instituted hiring policies that favor women (e.g. giving women 2 chances to pass a technical phone screen instead of one). And we're not alone in this. Microsoft and Intel have both instituted policies of witholding bonuses unless diversity quotas are met, and Facebook gives recruiters more points - which count towards performance reviews - for recruiting diverse candidates[1]. 1. https://www.payscale.com/compensation-today/2019/03/tie-bonuses-to-diversity-goals https://www.payscale.com/compensation-today/2019/03/tie-bonu...
- foldr 7y ago
  These kinds of top-down initiatives are well and good, but the real problem is cultural. You only have to read this discussion to see why women don't want to work in STEM.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    Elaborate. What are the "serious efforts" made by medical and law industries that got women into these professions that STEM has not employed? Furthermore, do you care to identify what in this discussion makes it so clear why women would not go into STEM?
    - naasking 7y ago
      > What are the "serious efforts" made by medical and law industries that got women into these professions that STEM has not employed? More than that, what "cultural changes" did they enact? From what I've read of the history, culture only shifted after women achieved rough gender parity. Cultural shifts follow demographic shifts, not vice versa. And even now, gender disparities exist that can't be explained by sexist theories. For instance, why is surgery dominated by men and pediatrics dominated by women? Sexist theories have a lot of holes like these gender disparities within fields and the gender equality paradox that's the subject of this article. And yet, there's a theory that explains all of the data we see: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00189/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.0018... This theory relegates sexism to a minor role, perhaps affecting single digit differences in gender disparities, not the double digits we actually see.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  > For the entirety of my life (I'm over 25) Mine, too, and I'm over 45.
TulliusCicero 7y ago
So you're suggesting the lawyers and doctors in charge back in the 60's and 70's were more progressive and less sexist than engineers in 2019? Really? That's what you're going with?
- foldr 7y ago
  No? Where do I say that?
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    It's implied by saying that those other fields made serious efforts to combat sexism back then, but CS hasn't made an equivalent effort now. What other reason would there be for such a discrepancy, other than being motivated by sexism?
    - foldr 7y ago
      You've made this point elsewhere in the thread, but it doesn't really make any sense. See the responses to your other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21775710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21775710
  - bosie 7y ago
    TulliusCicero is saying that the 60s and 70s were the period when women entered those fields en masse. Hence you should compare the state of those fields in the 60s/70s to the CS field now if you wanna determine sexism as the cause of entering/not-entering a given field.
oarabbus_ 7y ago
Medicine and Law have made serious efforts to counter sexism? Like what? Law is essentially the definition of the "Old Boys Club" and as for Medicine... I used to work in the medical field for a while. Go ask any (female) surgical nurse about the supposed efforts to counter sexism in the OR. I don't believe your claim is true.
- foldr 7y ago
  I'm not saying that law and medicine are perfect. But they were once just as stereotypically male as tech is now, and yet have radically shifted their gender balance. Fifty years ago people would no doubt have told you that women just weren't interested in becoming lawyers or doctors. Now a majority of attorneys in the US are women, and more women are enrolling in medical school than men.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    > But they were once just as stereotypically male as tech is now, and yet have radically shifted their gender balance. You say this as if the fields themselves decided, but it could just as easily be that women pushed in harder. > Fifty years ago people would no doubt have told you that women just weren't interested in becoming lawyers or doctors. Again, what was the difference? You've suggested a relative difference in sexism at the time, but I've seen no data suggesting this. It just looks like a guess on your part.
    - foldr 7y ago
      I think you are reading a lot into my comment that isn't there. I don't know exactly why women fifty years ago made the decisions that they did. You don't, either.
      - TulliusCicero 7y ago
        You're being vague and deflecting here. In one comment you suggest that the cause is law and medicine being relatively less sexist, and here you just say, "well, we don't know why they did what they did." Well, which is it? What basis do you have for your earlier point? > You don't, either. Why would you even say this? The comment you responded to didn't have me asserting a reason why. It's like you're attacking a strawman.
losvedir 7y ago
> The fields you mention made serious efforts to counter sexism. Do you have any references on what those efforts were?
- knicholes 7y ago
  I've served multiple times at SheTech (an event where we invite thousands of highschool girls to come learn about tech and jobs), and I've helped host at least five Hour of Code events at Adobe where we make sure half of those invited are female where we teach robotics. I've also spent a couple years teaching refugees how to code, and we make sure half of those students are female, as well. I've never attended personally, but we also host an event yearly called "Girls Who Code." Adobe has also partnered with a local dev bootcamp to hire intern graduates-- I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty confident that there's an emphasis on female graduates.

by foldr 7y ago

manfredo 7y ago

STEM hasn't made serious efforts to counter sexism? That starkly contrasts with my observations. For the entirety of my life (I'm over 25) that I can remember I've encountered programs and initiatives working towards getting women into STEM. All of the companies I've worked at instituted hiring policies that favor women (e.g. giving women 2 chances to pass a technical phone screen instead of one). And we're not alone in this. Microsoft and Intel have both instituted policies of witholding bonuses unless diversity quotas are met, and Facebook gives recruiters more points - which count towards performance reviews - for recruiting diverse candidates[1]. 1. https://www.payscale.com/compensation-today/2019/03/tie-bonuses-to-diversity-goals https://www.payscale.com/compensation-today/2019/03/tie-bonu...

foldr 7y ago
These kinds of top-down initiatives are well and good, but the real problem is cultural. You only have to read this discussion to see why women don't want to work in STEM.
- manfredo 7y ago
  Elaborate. What are the "serious efforts" made by medical and law industries that got women into these professions that STEM has not employed? Furthermore, do you care to identify what in this discussion makes it so clear why women would not go into STEM?
  - naasking 7y ago
    > What are the "serious efforts" made by medical and law industries that got women into these professions that STEM has not employed? More than that, what "cultural changes" did they enact? From what I've read of the history, culture only shifted after women achieved rough gender parity. Cultural shifts follow demographic shifts, not vice versa. And even now, gender disparities exist that can't be explained by sexist theories. For instance, why is surgery dominated by men and pediatrics dominated by women? Sexist theories have a lot of holes like these gender disparities within fields and the gender equality paradox that's the subject of this article. And yet, there's a theory that explains all of the data we see: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00189/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.0018... This theory relegates sexism to a minor role, perhaps affecting single digit differences in gender disparities, not the double digits we actually see.
commandlinefan 7y ago
> For the entirety of my life (I'm over 25) Mine, too, and I'm over 45.

TulliusCicero 7y ago

So you're suggesting the lawyers and doctors in charge back in the 60's and 70's were more progressive and less sexist than engineers in 2019? Really? That's what you're going with?

foldr 7y ago
No? Where do I say that?
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  It's implied by saying that those other fields made serious efforts to combat sexism back then, but CS hasn't made an equivalent effort now. What other reason would there be for such a discrepancy, other than being motivated by sexism?
  - foldr 7y ago
    You've made this point elsewhere in the thread, but it doesn't really make any sense. See the responses to your other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21775710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21775710
- bosie 7y ago
  TulliusCicero is saying that the 60s and 70s were the period when women entered those fields en masse. Hence you should compare the state of those fields in the 60s/70s to the CS field now if you wanna determine sexism as the cause of entering/not-entering a given field.

oarabbus_ 7y ago

Medicine and Law have made serious efforts to counter sexism? Like what? Law is essentially the definition of the "Old Boys Club" and as for Medicine... I used to work in the medical field for a while. Go ask any (female) surgical nurse about the supposed efforts to counter sexism in the OR. I don't believe your claim is true.

foldr 7y ago
I'm not saying that law and medicine are perfect. But they were once just as stereotypically male as tech is now, and yet have radically shifted their gender balance. Fifty years ago people would no doubt have told you that women just weren't interested in becoming lawyers or doctors. Now a majority of attorneys in the US are women, and more women are enrolling in medical school than men.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  > But they were once just as stereotypically male as tech is now, and yet have radically shifted their gender balance. You say this as if the fields themselves decided, but it could just as easily be that women pushed in harder. > Fifty years ago people would no doubt have told you that women just weren't interested in becoming lawyers or doctors. Again, what was the difference? You've suggested a relative difference in sexism at the time, but I've seen no data suggesting this. It just looks like a guess on your part.
  - foldr 7y ago
    I think you are reading a lot into my comment that isn't there. I don't know exactly why women fifty years ago made the decisions that they did. You don't, either.
    - TulliusCicero 7y ago
      You're being vague and deflecting here. In one comment you suggest that the cause is law and medicine being relatively less sexist, and here you just say, "well, we don't know why they did what they did." Well, which is it? What basis do you have for your earlier point? > You don't, either. Why would you even say this? The comment you responded to didn't have me asserting a reason why. It's like you're attacking a strawman.

losvedir 7y ago

> The fields you mention made serious efforts to counter sexism. Do you have any references on what those efforts were?

knicholes 7y ago
I've served multiple times at SheTech (an event where we invite thousands of highschool girls to come learn about tech and jobs), and I've helped host at least five Hour of Code events at Adobe where we make sure half of those invited are female where we teach robotics. I've also spent a couple years teaching refugees how to code, and we make sure half of those students are female, as well. I've never attended personally, but we also host an event yearly called "Girls Who Code." Adobe has also partnered with a local dev bootcamp to hire intern graduates-- I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty confident that there's an emphasis on female graduates.