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You're getting into semantics. I don't mean they "invented" a concept nobody had done before -- I mean they had to sit down and build a new API in Vue (and writ

by ng12 7y ago

You're getting into semantics. I don't mean they "invented" a concept nobody had done before -- I mean they had to sit down and build a new API in Vue (and write-up a very long documentation page) to solve a common problem. React, by design, avoids adding to the mental load for the developer by minimizing the amount of concepts they need to learn. I highly recommend this talk, he explains it better than I ever could: https://2014.jsconf.eu/speakers/sebastian-markbage-minimal-api-surface-area-learning-patterns-instead-of-frameworks.html https://2014.jsconf.eu/speakers/sebastian-markbage-minimal-a... > The way JS and HTML interact inside JSX is not intuitive at all, and you can't use a lot of JS constructs inside JS, such as `for` loops and `ifs` You didn't read my one sentence definition. It has to be a statement that evaluates to a primitive. Obviously putting a for loop doesn't work there -- how could it? If you find yourself faced with that desire the obvious solution is to call a function that does whatever `for` and `if` statements you want and returns a value. > Maybe you just find React easier because you learned it first? Maybe do a few tutorial lessons before judging it? Just because something is different or not familiar to you doesn't mean it's worse or is difficult. I think it says a lot about your argument that you have to keep questioning my credentials and experience. I've been doing web development for a long time, React is closer to the twentieth framework I've used than the first. It's a big part of my job to build infrastructure for web development and teach the fundamentals to developers who are primarily backend engineers. I've had stellar success with React -- both for the "power users" and those with minimal web development expertise -- and my argument here is attempting to explain why I've had success with React where other frameworks have been struggled.

ratww 7y ago
I completely disagree with the claim that JSX avoids that mental load. You say "obviously putting a for loop doesn't work there" but it's nowhere near obvious. Loops in JSX are not obvious. Ternary conditionals are not obvious. HOCs and component slots are not obvious. Only if you dive deep into how JSX works and how exactly it compiles to JS you're able to develop some intuition and figure those things out by yourself, but before you do, you have to do like every other framework (including Vue.js) and learn from the documentation and from examples. I also like React and JSX, but I think you are biased towards some piece of tech just because you're more familiar with it.
- ng12 7y ago
  > but I think you are biased towards some piece of tech just because you're more familiar with it. Or because I spent more than half my career fuddling with sub-optimal technologies (up to and including Angular and Vue) and React had good answers for most of my complaints. > Loops in JSX are not obvious. Because loops don't exist in JSX. It is obvious, because it's not clear how you would even write one. Maybe someone might naively try something like this: const Todo = props => { return (<ul> {for (todo in props.todos) { <li>{todo}</li> }} </ul>) } And get a perfectly reasonable JavaScript error: expression expected. This is just an orphaned loop, like you tried to put a loop in an argument to a function. From there it's an easy step (or a quick stack overflow) to figure out that you need to use the loop to build your array before inserting it into the JSX. Once you've seen this pattern, ternaries and "slot" components become obvious. I can vouch for all of this being very easy to learn -- I'm constantly impressed by how quickly my students pick up "advanced" React concepts. Anecdotal evidence, sure, but it makes my life easy that I can explain the entire React+JSX API in 20 minutes and under a dozen slides. Anyways, I like Vue. I think it has some great ideas -- but I wouldn't use it without JSX and at that point I might as well use React. It's my conviction that templates are misery and I'll champion any technology that gets us away from them.
  - ratww 7y ago
    > And get a perfectly reasonable JavaScript error: expression expected Actually the error in CRA/Webpack/Parcel/Codesandbox/Babeljs.io is "Parsing error: Unexpected token", which is hardly intuitive and not all that reasonable. > From there it's an easy step (or a quick stack overflow) to figure out that you need to use the loop to build your array before inserting it into the JSX Maybe v-for wouldn't be "confusing" to you if you had the same attitude towards Vue. And maybe if you were less biased (as you admit you are against templates) and less extremist you'd see that students are quick to pick up concepts that you find confusing in Vue.js too.
    - ng12 7y ago
      Ah, that's the TypeScript variant of the error that I posted. Same meaning. Again, my opinions are formed from doing this for a living, and honestly I've spent much more time in my career working with templates than I have with JSX. I've built non-trivial applicatons with PHP, RoR, JSP, Django, Mustache/Handlebars, Angular, Vue, yada, yada, yada. This is coming from an informed opinion, not thoughtless favoritism. Not sure what else I can say to you.

by ng12 7y ago

ratww 7y ago

I completely disagree with the claim that JSX avoids that mental load. You say "obviously putting a for loop doesn't work there" but it's nowhere near obvious. Loops in JSX are not obvious. Ternary conditionals are not obvious. HOCs and component slots are not obvious. Only if you dive deep into how JSX works and how exactly it compiles to JS you're able to develop some intuition and figure those things out by yourself, but before you do, you have to do like every other framework (including Vue.js) and learn from the documentation and from examples. I also like React and JSX, but I think you are biased towards some piece of tech just because you're more familiar with it.

ng12 7y ago
> but I think you are biased towards some piece of tech just because you're more familiar with it. Or because I spent more than half my career fuddling with sub-optimal technologies (up to and including Angular and Vue) and React had good answers for most of my complaints. > Loops in JSX are not obvious. Because loops don't exist in JSX. It is obvious, because it's not clear how you would even write one. Maybe someone might naively try something like this: const Todo = props => { return (<ul> {for (todo in props.todos) { <li>{todo}</li> }} </ul>) } And get a perfectly reasonable JavaScript error: expression expected. This is just an orphaned loop, like you tried to put a loop in an argument to a function. From there it's an easy step (or a quick stack overflow) to figure out that you need to use the loop to build your array before inserting it into the JSX. Once you've seen this pattern, ternaries and "slot" components become obvious. I can vouch for all of this being very easy to learn -- I'm constantly impressed by how quickly my students pick up "advanced" React concepts. Anecdotal evidence, sure, but it makes my life easy that I can explain the entire React+JSX API in 20 minutes and under a dozen slides. Anyways, I like Vue. I think it has some great ideas -- but I wouldn't use it without JSX and at that point I might as well use React. It's my conviction that templates are misery and I'll champion any technology that gets us away from them.
- ratww 7y ago
  > And get a perfectly reasonable JavaScript error: expression expected Actually the error in CRA/Webpack/Parcel/Codesandbox/Babeljs.io is "Parsing error: Unexpected token", which is hardly intuitive and not all that reasonable. > From there it's an easy step (or a quick stack overflow) to figure out that you need to use the loop to build your array before inserting it into the JSX Maybe v-for wouldn't be "confusing" to you if you had the same attitude towards Vue. And maybe if you were less biased (as you admit you are against templates) and less extremist you'd see that students are quick to pick up concepts that you find confusing in Vue.js too.
  - ng12 7y ago
    Ah, that's the TypeScript variant of the error that I posted. Same meaning. Again, my opinions are formed from doing this for a living, and honestly I've spent much more time in my career working with templates than I have with JSX. I've built non-trivial applicatons with PHP, RoR, JSP, Django, Mustache/Handlebars, Angular, Vue, yada, yada, yada. This is coming from an informed opinion, not thoughtless favoritism. Not sure what else I can say to you.