7 ms·

>When I started programming, I heard a lot about how programmers are down to earth, not like those elitist folks who have uniforms involving suits and ties. You

by cjf4 7y ago

>When I started programming, I heard a lot about how programmers are down to earth, not like those elitist folks who have uniforms involving suits and ties. You can even wear t-shirts to work! But if you think programmers aren't elitist, try wearing a suit and tie to an interview sometime. Indeed: http://web.archive.org/web/20140618142018/http://blog.42floors.com/interviewing-at-a-startup/ http://web.archive.org/web/20140618142018/http://blog.42floo...

calt 7y ago
My university's career coaching always told us to dress at the level of the workplace + 1. I think this is a good rule. You look good, but not awkwardly out of place. Perhaps it's an unfortunate social rule that we shouldn't have to follow, but I've learned to shrug my shoulder to a lot of such rules and just go with it.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  My question for that is how to figure out what the workplace looks like before you interview.
  - trevyn 7y ago
    You should have a backchannel before you’re even in the system.
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      In that case you've already got a leg up and a faux pas or two will probably be forgiven.
      - jethro_tell 7y ago
        this is why we have a diversity problem in tech, because we only hire people we know who came from our exact background.
  - Reedx 7y ago
    See if they have any team photos on their About page or elsewhere. In the case of tech, generally you can just dress how you normally dress. Or watch Silicon Valley if you're unsure.
  - grogenaut 7y ago
    Ask the recruiter. This is a common question. I've had them blow it off as dress nice but I usually ask them to tell me what the hiring manager is wearing (recruiting often dresses nicer)
  - fredophile 7y ago
    If its a software company then I'd guess the default is T-shirt and jeans. If its doing software or tech inside a larger business organization then it may be business casual (khakis, collared shirt). You may be able to check the companies website or social media accounts to find pictures of the workplace. If all else fails or you still aren't sure just ask the recruiter.
nemetroid 7y ago
Reading this makes me want to wear a suit to my next job interview, though I’ve never worn one at the office.
foobiekr 7y ago
Twenty two years ago I wore a suit and tie to my first going-to-graduate-soon interview in the valley. It’s just what I was used to from DC. It happened that my interview was on Halloween so I joked that it was that once I realized what was going on but still, extremely awkward and set the tone of each interview poorly. Every time I go to Defcon or similar conferences, though, I think of that interview and imagine the hilarious counterculture opportunities of showing up in something other than the black t-shirt uniform.
- itronitron 7y ago
  Speaking of Halloween, in the late '90's I wore an Anderson Consulting polo shirt and khakis as my costume to a Halloween party. Multiple people approached me trying to get an inside track to getting hired there. My wife and I still laugh about it.
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    I know we're not supposed to make short meta-comments - but that is genuinely hilarious.
Bootwizard 7y ago
Is it bad that I've always worn a suit and tie to interviews? Obviously nobody else there was wearing one so I did feel a bit out of place.
- Reedx 7y ago
  That means you're interviewing in hard mode and decreasing your odds. For sure it won't help you. So it's not well advised to wear a suit to a tech interview. Unless perhaps that's genuinely how you like to dress and how you go to work. Then just make that clear at the start of the interview. Otherwise interviewers will be wondering why you're wearing a suit and are unlikely to assume it's merely an aesthetic choice (as it's rare that's the case - usually it's simply that they didn't know it was ok to be casual).
  - mcguire 7y ago
    Right, because if you don't wear the right uniform, you are not the right kind of person.
warent 7y ago
> Well, dude, no, actually you can overdress for an interview and you just did. Of course I didn’t say it. And we didn’t decline him based on what he decided to wear. We declined on him because he wasn’t a fit for us in many other ways. The suit was just the early give away. Nah. Let's keep ourselves honest. It was the suit; or, at the very least, it was what the suit represented--professionalism that separates private, personal life from work life. Yuck. Who has time for that when you're trying to get rich off the next big exit? /s Startup culture (and many tech cultures for that matter) is one of the most obnoxious, cringe-inducing things. I remember starting out in the culture, earning my stripes. It's like high school / college culture, transplanted into a professional work environment. Same toxicity and egos, just with bigger dollar figures. I don't personally wear suits, and I'm not saying you have to call me Mr. Lastname, but let's not fool ourselves: we're business partners, not bros, and this bro behavior is also the hostility that drives gender diversity away from our company. There are two things I swore to never do again: 1) never work in an office; 2) never work for a for-profit startup (i.e. a business that isn't profitable) unless I created it. I've only ever found one private startup that has been amazing to work for, and the CEO used to work directly for Melinda Gates in the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Go figure!
- asdfman123 7y ago
  I did my undergrad at Stanford and the whole Silicon Valley culture was just an enormous turnoff. I just can't do it. It strikes me as... total dumb BS that does not seem to understand it's total dumb BS. To be fair, that's probably tinted with the overly critical filter of an outsider. In the enterprise world you are at least free to acknowledge that making profit for hyperwealthy private investors isn't your life's greatest calling.
- lr 7y ago
  > Nah. Let's keep ourselves honest. It was the suit; or, at the very least, it was what the suit represented--professionalism that separates private, personal life from work life. Yuck. Who has time for that when you're trying to get rich off the next big exit? /s That is so very well stated I want to highlight it! Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
- deleted 7y ago
close04 7y ago
> Dress appropriately > Don’t overdress, don’t underdress. That's the kind of ultra generic advice bordering on truism. Without knowledge of exactly what that startup expects, it looks like (and the rest of the article enforces this) the only generically safe choice is jeans and sneakers. Suit is clearly defined as overdressing. I can assume flip-flops would be a case of underdressing but I think that would be a bit ridiculous for any kind of interview regardless. So honestly, what's underdressing when it comes to such a startup interview?
- jtcruthers 7y ago
  >What's underdressing when it comes to such a startup interview? Flip-flops, jorts, and a cutoff tee that says "GTL" in a neon font of your choice.
  - close04 7y ago
    > I can assume flip-flops would be a case of underdressing but I think that would be a bit ridiculous for any kind of interview regardless. That's what I said in my comment but would anyone reasonably show up like that in an interview? A suit may or may not be overdressing but flip-flops or anything like that would definitely fall below just "underdressing". It would just be unreasonable and offensive if you ask me (and you could give any number of such examples that may be even worse). For all intents and purposes jeans and sneakers already is the lowest reasonably acceptable way to dress for an interview, right?
    - ghaff 7y ago
      >For all intents and purposes jeans and sneakers already is the lowest reasonably acceptable way to dress for an interview, right? I would think so. As for jacket/tie (or even suit) I take it as signaling that this is a professional interaction that they take seriously and have gone to the trouble of dressing up for. I know I'm not part of SV culture but I can't imagine dinging someone in an interview for dressing up, especially when that would still expected in quite a few places. I also know a number of people who dress up for speaking engagements and it's just sort of part of their style. FWIW, last time I interviewed (and took the offer), I wore a jacket and tie to my interviews even though I knew that would be a step up from the business casual or business casual with jeans that the people I'd be talking with would be wearing. I didn't need to and it didn't matter one way or the other but it made sense to me.
traderjane 7y ago
A suit costs way more money than t shirt and jeans. And people will know if you only have one suit, and people can eyeball if you have a bad suit — it’s like an advertisement for how low class you are, and it is in fact embarrassing and reflects on your credibility for those who don’t know you. That’s not something you control. The casual look is as low a hurdle as you can make it. Complaining that you don’t walk in like it’s Goldman Sachs is a bit silly. What a deprivation.
- alfalfasprout 7y ago
  Honestly go to any large unicorn or many FANGs and those T-Shirt and jeans are often a $200 "hypebeast" style shirt, $200 raw denim jeans, and $400 sneakers. I mean, I'm guilty of owning more than one of those items but I think it's dumb to claim that wearing t-shirt and jeans is much better in this regard.
  - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
    Well if you go with a $10 shirt people won't care though.
  - traderjane 7y ago
    > I hate the anti-suit thing in SV. Suits look great, you feel great wearing a good tailored suit... Tailored suit? Seriously? Does that not smell like luxury? Why is that part of the discussion for workplace uniform? A college student wearing a hoodie given for free by TripleByte doesn't look bad at the world's largest software firm. If you wear a t-shirt I cannot tell if you graduated from Stanford. But if you're a young man aiming for the Big 5 accounting world, your friends would advise you to own a battle wardrobe. Wearing a bad suit is embarrassing, and people at the upper echelons of the company almost always have better suits. It is a smell of class.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - klodolph 7y ago
alfalfasprout 7y ago
I hate the anti-suit thing in SV. Suits look great, you feel great wearing a good tailored suit, and honestly with so many engineers wearing the "unicorn uniform" of Supreme and Common Projects, it's not like they can't afford a suit anyways.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- thfuran 7y ago
  > you feel great wearing a good tailored suit, Maybe if it's 50° F indoors. I agree that there shouldn't be a pointless stigma against some outfit, but there also shouldn't be a pointless requirement to adhere to useless standards.
- JJMcJ 7y ago
  Jacket can be burdensome, if your shirts fit properly a tie isn't so bad, and, as Neil Stephenson pointed out in the book Cryptonomicon, well fitted dress slacks are actually quite comfortable. Most people get button up shirts with the neck size a bit small so buttoning them for a tie and it really is unpleasant.
- RandallBrown 7y ago
  Maybe you feel great wearing a good tailored suit. I personally find suits uncomfortable, even when they fit well. But it doesn't matter. Wear what you want. I've worked at a bunch of places where people would wear suits to work sometimes, despite most of the people wearing jeans and a t-shirt. You'll just have to put up with the occasional "Oh, are you interviewing somewhere today?" jokes.
soneca 7y ago
From your link: "go-out-for-a-beer test" I am sure this is not a literal "going out for a beer", but still it bothers me that it exists and is called that way. I am 40yo (still junior though as I started learning to code at 37) and I don't drink. I like to work on startups because I like to be generalist and solve problems that impact the fate of the company. So I always work with a lot of young people that like to go out. It is always a mismatch that I rarely go out with the team, and sad that this "go-out-for-q-beer test" is considered normal in some places.
- teddyh 7y ago
  If you haven’t seen it, you might be interested in Our Culture of Exclusion (2012): “Let's be clear, I will turn down a beer any day of the week!” — https://web.archive.org/web/20130413021020/http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130413021020/http://ryanfunduk...
  - itronitron 7y ago
    wow, I didn't realize the mind blown gif was from 2012 (mind blown)
    - peruvian 7y ago
      It's definitely older than that. I distinctively remember posting it in ~2010 if not before.
      - teddyh 7y ago
        The clip itself is from a TV show that, from what I can determine, was originally broadcast on the 22 of February 2009. Know Your Meme dates the clip’s use as a meme to as early as May 2011¹. If you have an earlier reference, I’m sure they would appreciate being informed, if you can give a link to to it. 1. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mind-blown https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mind-blown
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

by cjf4 7y ago

calt 7y ago

My university's career coaching always told us to dress at the level of the workplace + 1. I think this is a good rule. You look good, but not awkwardly out of place. Perhaps it's an unfortunate social rule that we shouldn't have to follow, but I've learned to shrug my shoulder to a lot of such rules and just go with it.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
My question for that is how to figure out what the workplace looks like before you interview.
- trevyn 7y ago
  You should have a backchannel before you’re even in the system.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    In that case you've already got a leg up and a faux pas or two will probably be forgiven.
    - jethro_tell 7y ago
      this is why we have a diversity problem in tech, because we only hire people we know who came from our exact background.
- Reedx 7y ago
  See if they have any team photos on their About page or elsewhere. In the case of tech, generally you can just dress how you normally dress. Or watch Silicon Valley if you're unsure.
- grogenaut 7y ago
  Ask the recruiter. This is a common question. I've had them blow it off as dress nice but I usually ask them to tell me what the hiring manager is wearing (recruiting often dresses nicer)
- fredophile 7y ago
  If its a software company then I'd guess the default is T-shirt and jeans. If its doing software or tech inside a larger business organization then it may be business casual (khakis, collared shirt). You may be able to check the companies website or social media accounts to find pictures of the workplace. If all else fails or you still aren't sure just ask the recruiter.

nemetroid 7y ago

Reading this makes me want to wear a suit to my next job interview, though I’ve never worn one at the office.

foobiekr 7y ago

Twenty two years ago I wore a suit and tie to my first going-to-graduate-soon interview in the valley. It’s just what I was used to from DC. It happened that my interview was on Halloween so I joked that it was that once I realized what was going on but still, extremely awkward and set the tone of each interview poorly. Every time I go to Defcon or similar conferences, though, I think of that interview and imagine the hilarious counterculture opportunities of showing up in something other than the black t-shirt uniform.

itronitron 7y ago
Speaking of Halloween, in the late '90's I wore an Anderson Consulting polo shirt and khakis as my costume to a Halloween party. Multiple people approached me trying to get an inside track to getting hired there. My wife and I still laugh about it.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  I know we're not supposed to make short meta-comments - but that is genuinely hilarious.

Bootwizard 7y ago

Is it bad that I've always worn a suit and tie to interviews? Obviously nobody else there was wearing one so I did feel a bit out of place.

Reedx 7y ago
That means you're interviewing in hard mode and decreasing your odds. For sure it won't help you. So it's not well advised to wear a suit to a tech interview. Unless perhaps that's genuinely how you like to dress and how you go to work. Then just make that clear at the start of the interview. Otherwise interviewers will be wondering why you're wearing a suit and are unlikely to assume it's merely an aesthetic choice (as it's rare that's the case - usually it's simply that they didn't know it was ok to be casual).
- mcguire 7y ago
  Right, because if you don't wear the right uniform, you are not the right kind of person.

warent 7y ago

> Well, dude, no, actually you can overdress for an interview and you just did. Of course I didn’t say it. And we didn’t decline him based on what he decided to wear. We declined on him because he wasn’t a fit for us in many other ways. The suit was just the early give away. Nah. Let's keep ourselves honest. It was the suit; or, at the very least, it was what the suit represented--professionalism that separates private, personal life from work life. Yuck. Who has time for that when you're trying to get rich off the next big exit? /s Startup culture (and many tech cultures for that matter) is one of the most obnoxious, cringe-inducing things. I remember starting out in the culture, earning my stripes. It's like high school / college culture, transplanted into a professional work environment. Same toxicity and egos, just with bigger dollar figures. I don't personally wear suits, and I'm not saying you have to call me Mr. Lastname, but let's not fool ourselves: we're business partners, not bros, and this bro behavior is also the hostility that drives gender diversity away from our company. There are two things I swore to never do again: 1) never work in an office; 2) never work for a for-profit startup (i.e. a business that isn't profitable) unless I created it. I've only ever found one private startup that has been amazing to work for, and the CEO used to work directly for Melinda Gates in the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Go figure!

asdfman123 7y ago
I did my undergrad at Stanford and the whole Silicon Valley culture was just an enormous turnoff. I just can't do it. It strikes me as... total dumb BS that does not seem to understand it's total dumb BS. To be fair, that's probably tinted with the overly critical filter of an outsider. In the enterprise world you are at least free to acknowledge that making profit for hyperwealthy private investors isn't your life's greatest calling.
lr 7y ago
> Nah. Let's keep ourselves honest. It was the suit; or, at the very least, it was what the suit represented--professionalism that separates private, personal life from work life. Yuck. Who has time for that when you're trying to get rich off the next big exit? /s That is so very well stated I want to highlight it! Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
deleted 7y ago

close04 7y ago

> Dress appropriately > Don’t overdress, don’t underdress. That's the kind of ultra generic advice bordering on truism. Without knowledge of exactly what that startup expects, it looks like (and the rest of the article enforces this) the only generically safe choice is jeans and sneakers. Suit is clearly defined as overdressing. I can assume flip-flops would be a case of underdressing but I think that would be a bit ridiculous for any kind of interview regardless. So honestly, what's underdressing when it comes to such a startup interview?

jtcruthers 7y ago
>What's underdressing when it comes to such a startup interview? Flip-flops, jorts, and a cutoff tee that says "GTL" in a neon font of your choice.
- close04 7y ago
  > I can assume flip-flops would be a case of underdressing but I think that would be a bit ridiculous for any kind of interview regardless. That's what I said in my comment but would anyone reasonably show up like that in an interview? A suit may or may not be overdressing but flip-flops or anything like that would definitely fall below just "underdressing". It would just be unreasonable and offensive if you ask me (and you could give any number of such examples that may be even worse). For all intents and purposes jeans and sneakers already is the lowest reasonably acceptable way to dress for an interview, right?
  - ghaff 7y ago
    >For all intents and purposes jeans and sneakers already is the lowest reasonably acceptable way to dress for an interview, right? I would think so. As for jacket/tie (or even suit) I take it as signaling that this is a professional interaction that they take seriously and have gone to the trouble of dressing up for. I know I'm not part of SV culture but I can't imagine dinging someone in an interview for dressing up, especially when that would still expected in quite a few places. I also know a number of people who dress up for speaking engagements and it's just sort of part of their style. FWIW, last time I interviewed (and took the offer), I wore a jacket and tie to my interviews even though I knew that would be a step up from the business casual or business casual with jeans that the people I'd be talking with would be wearing. I didn't need to and it didn't matter one way or the other but it made sense to me.

traderjane 7y ago

A suit costs way more money than t shirt and jeans. And people will know if you only have one suit, and people can eyeball if you have a bad suit — it’s like an advertisement for how low class you are, and it is in fact embarrassing and reflects on your credibility for those who don’t know you. That’s not something you control. The casual look is as low a hurdle as you can make it. Complaining that you don’t walk in like it’s Goldman Sachs is a bit silly. What a deprivation.

alfalfasprout 7y ago
Honestly go to any large unicorn or many FANGs and those T-Shirt and jeans are often a $200 "hypebeast" style shirt, $200 raw denim jeans, and $400 sneakers. I mean, I'm guilty of owning more than one of those items but I think it's dumb to claim that wearing t-shirt and jeans is much better in this regard.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  Well if you go with a $10 shirt people won't care though.
- traderjane 7y ago
  > I hate the anti-suit thing in SV. Suits look great, you feel great wearing a good tailored suit... Tailored suit? Seriously? Does that not smell like luxury? Why is that part of the discussion for workplace uniform? A college student wearing a hoodie given for free by TripleByte doesn't look bad at the world's largest software firm. If you wear a t-shirt I cannot tell if you graduated from Stanford. But if you're a young man aiming for the Big 5 accounting world, your friends would advise you to own a battle wardrobe. Wearing a bad suit is embarrassing, and people at the upper echelons of the company almost always have better suits. It is a smell of class.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - klodolph 7y ago

alfalfasprout 7y ago

I hate the anti-suit thing in SV. Suits look great, you feel great wearing a good tailored suit, and honestly with so many engineers wearing the "unicorn uniform" of Supreme and Common Projects, it's not like they can't afford a suit anyways.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
thfuran 7y ago
> you feel great wearing a good tailored suit, Maybe if it's 50° F indoors. I agree that there shouldn't be a pointless stigma against some outfit, but there also shouldn't be a pointless requirement to adhere to useless standards.
JJMcJ 7y ago
Jacket can be burdensome, if your shirts fit properly a tie isn't so bad, and, as Neil Stephenson pointed out in the book Cryptonomicon, well fitted dress slacks are actually quite comfortable. Most people get button up shirts with the neck size a bit small so buttoning them for a tie and it really is unpleasant.
RandallBrown 7y ago
Maybe you feel great wearing a good tailored suit. I personally find suits uncomfortable, even when they fit well. But it doesn't matter. Wear what you want. I've worked at a bunch of places where people would wear suits to work sometimes, despite most of the people wearing jeans and a t-shirt. You'll just have to put up with the occasional "Oh, are you interviewing somewhere today?" jokes.

soneca 7y ago

From your link: "go-out-for-a-beer test" I am sure this is not a literal "going out for a beer", but still it bothers me that it exists and is called that way. I am 40yo (still junior though as I started learning to code at 37) and I don't drink. I like to work on startups because I like to be generalist and solve problems that impact the fate of the company. So I always work with a lot of young people that like to go out. It is always a mismatch that I rarely go out with the team, and sad that this "go-out-for-q-beer test" is considered normal in some places.

teddyh 7y ago
If you haven’t seen it, you might be interested in Our Culture of Exclusion (2012): “Let's be clear, I will turn down a beer any day of the week!” — https://web.archive.org/web/20130413021020/http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130413021020/http://ryanfunduk...
- itronitron 7y ago
  wow, I didn't realize the mind blown gif was from 2012 (mind blown)
  - peruvian 7y ago
    It's definitely older than that. I distinctively remember posting it in ~2010 if not before.
    - teddyh 7y ago
      The clip itself is from a TV show that, from what I can determine, was originally broadcast on the 22 of February 2009. Know Your Meme dates the clip’s use as a meme to as early as May 2011¹. If you have an earlier reference, I’m sure they would appreciate being informed, if you can give a link to to it. 1. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mind-blown https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mind-blown
Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]