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> Kojima and Notch both represented daring, avant-garde creators, with vision and creativity strong enough to go head to head with soulless corporations. This

> Kojima and Notch both represented daring, avant-garde creators, with vision and creativity strong enough to go head to head with soulless corporations. This is an interesting retelling of Minecraft if you'd ever seen or played Infiniminer first. There wasn't much "daring" or "avant-garde" about Minecraft. Right place, right time for a toy side project, which mildly iterated on the last thing in that genre, to blow up. That doesn't mean that Minecraft isn't good (it is, and it works even better as a platform for mods on top of it) and it doesn't take anything away from Notch (though his hot-garbage bad-human behavior over the last few years certainly should), but comparing that kind of thing to Kojima's output is pretty dang revisionist.

KirinDave 7y ago
I don't think it's "wrong" inasmuch as folks continued to give Notch (and really all of Mojang) credit despite the fact that they were essentially completely incapable of pushing minecraft (or really any other games) past a very basic stage, properly embrace their community (Minecon was, by the way, a third party thing) with better engagement and a modding API, or monetizing what they had. Mojang was in a position to turn the fact that everyone had Minecraft into a central gamer identity service and their main argument against it was "standards like OpenID are hard." Notch's accidental status as a symbol by stumbling onto a refinement of a Zachtronics game really drives home this phenomena. Even though I love a lot of Kojima's work, I think that we see a similar phenomenon there and that phenomenon is comparable. Kojima certainly continues to have an outsized impact on the industry despite very limited output. Death Stranding is outrageously well-funded and supported despite being... well... I mean I'm playing it and I like it but I don't think it's a game that'll have more than cult status. It's ironic really, because there are so many heroic indie creators hanging on by their fingernails in the industry pushing out amazing game after amazing game while the industry and market as a whole glorifies this condition even as it abuses workers with terrible working conditions (and worth noting: some of the worst comp in the software world). Meanwhile the fandom and press seem content funneling all those hopes and dreams for brilliant creators into a few avatars.
- eropple 7y ago
  All totally true, fantastic--and I mean fantastic--post. It's funny, because Zachtronics might be doing some of the more "daring, avant-garde" stuff in games now. Guy doesn't seem at all bitter that a knockoff of his game took off and made somebody else a billionaire, either, which is to his credit.
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    Zachtronics makes amazing games and most everyone who tries them finds at least one they love.
gallerdude 7y ago
I have to disagree. The core similarity is block-based gameplay, but after that they're entirely different games. Minecraft is an adventure game, a survival game, deep RPG influenced, and even a circuit simulator. And all the new features of the game exponentially increase the amount of gameplay possibilities, a true sandbox. I'm aware in 2019 the phrase "sandbox survival" is tired and a little sad, but this underscores the fundamental impact and innovation that Minecraft had. I don't disagree that Minecraft owes a LOT to luck (what doesn't at that level of success), but I disagree heavily with the idea it was merely a "toy side project which mildly iterated on the last thing in that genre".
- eropple 7y ago
  Minecraft wasn't that game when it blew up--moving in that way, but Minecraft became the RPG-ish game you describe afterwards. Infdev was not the game it is today, IMO.

KirinDave 7y ago

I don't think it's "wrong" inasmuch as folks continued to give Notch (and really all of Mojang) credit despite the fact that they were essentially completely incapable of pushing minecraft (or really any other games) past a very basic stage, properly embrace their community (Minecon was, by the way, a third party thing) with better engagement and a modding API, or monetizing what they had. Mojang was in a position to turn the fact that everyone had Minecraft into a central gamer identity service and their main argument against it was "standards like OpenID are hard." Notch's accidental status as a symbol by stumbling onto a refinement of a Zachtronics game really drives home this phenomena. Even though I love a lot of Kojima's work, I think that we see a similar phenomenon there and that phenomenon is comparable. Kojima certainly continues to have an outsized impact on the industry despite very limited output. Death Stranding is outrageously well-funded and supported despite being... well... I mean I'm playing it and I like it but I don't think it's a game that'll have more than cult status. It's ironic really, because there are so many heroic indie creators hanging on by their fingernails in the industry pushing out amazing game after amazing game while the industry and market as a whole glorifies this condition even as it abuses workers with terrible working conditions (and worth noting: some of the worst comp in the software world). Meanwhile the fandom and press seem content funneling all those hopes and dreams for brilliant creators into a few avatars.

eropple 7y ago
All totally true, fantastic--and I mean fantastic--post. It's funny, because Zachtronics might be doing some of the more "daring, avant-garde" stuff in games now. Guy doesn't seem at all bitter that a knockoff of his game took off and made somebody else a billionaire, either, which is to his credit.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  Zachtronics makes amazing games and most everyone who tries them finds at least one they love.

gallerdude 7y ago

I have to disagree. The core similarity is block-based gameplay, but after that they're entirely different games. Minecraft is an adventure game, a survival game, deep RPG influenced, and even a circuit simulator. And all the new features of the game exponentially increase the amount of gameplay possibilities, a true sandbox. I'm aware in 2019 the phrase "sandbox survival" is tired and a little sad, but this underscores the fundamental impact and innovation that Minecraft had. I don't disagree that Minecraft owes a LOT to luck (what doesn't at that level of success), but I disagree heavily with the idea it was merely a "toy side project which mildly iterated on the last thing in that genre".

eropple 7y ago
Minecraft wasn't that game when it blew up--moving in that way, but Minecraft became the RPG-ish game you describe afterwards. Infdev was not the game it is today, IMO.