4 ms·

Matt's assertion about "Suggested Sites" sending this data seems to be conjecture. I ran some packet captures and didn't find anything of that kind. However, i

by angusgr 16y ago

Matt's assertion about "Suggested Sites" sending this data seems to be conjecture. I ran some packet captures and didn't find anything of that kind. However, if you install the Bing Toolbar then it does send URL clickstream data. It explicitly asks you beforehand if you want to send info about "the searches you do, websites you visit..." though. Full post: http://projectgus.com/2011/02/bing-google-finding-some-facts/ http://projectgus.com/2011/02/bing-google-finding-some-facts...

wzdd 16y ago
Fascinating. I was planning on doing the same thing and now I don't have to -- thank you for taking the time. As you mention, this stuff could all be happening server-side, of course.
mayank 16y ago
Excellent analysis, thank you, especially in the distinction between "suggested sites" and the Bing toolbar's behavior. I can't argue with your methods. However, I do differ with some of your conclusions: > The behaviour I’ve seen explains Google’s experiments, but does not support the accusation that Bing set out to copy Google. I don't think it's so much about "set out to copy Google" necessarily, as it is that they are explicitly parsing Google queries and results from the clickthrough data and using it (quite directly) for their own results. What they set out to do is immaterial given what is provably happening. > Bing Toolbar is tracking user clicks and Bing could use the result to improve search results. I don’t personally see any great distinction between this behaviour and Google’s many tracking, indexing and scraping endeavours which they use to improve their own search results. The difference is that Google has proven that the results of certain queries are being directly fed as Bing results. If Microsoft does the same with Google rankings, I'd see your point, but right now the evidence only points in one direction. > While I personally dislike the privacy implications, Bing Toolbar is pretty upfront about it when it gets installed (unlike much web page user tracking.) The fact that the tracking is plain HTTP not HTTPS, with the content in plaintext, would seem to indicate that they weren’t seeking to hide anything. I'd be interested to see if Google over HTTPS queries are being transmitted by the toolbar over HTTP. That would be a pretty serious privacy violation IMO, especially when you pair that with unencrypted wifi at Starbucks. See the AOL search log fiasco: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/weekend-web/aol-search-log.php http://www.somethingawful.com/d/weekend-web/aol-search-log.p...
- angusgr 16y ago
  The difference is that Google has proven that the results of certain queries are being directly fed as Bing results. If Microsoft does the same with Google rankings, I'd see your point, but right now the evidence only points in one direction. However, these are also the only experiments that have been run - outlier data, gaming the algorithms. If you only test one possible outlier scenario and don't control against any other, it's fairly ambitious to stand up and say "this is exactly what is happening!" IMHO it would have been better for Microsoft to respond along these lines, instead of going into counterspin mode, though.
  - mayank 16y ago
    Claiming that Bing is copying outlier results is still a fair claim that Bing is copying results, especially considering that outlier queries are hard in general for search engines to get right: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1277939 http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1277939
  - magicalist 16y ago
    what control are you suggesting? I read a suggestion elsewhere of using only Firefox for some queries and seeing if they show up, which is silly, of couse. without a possible mechanism of action there's no point of using something as a control; I might as well wait to see if the files on my disabled usb drive show up on bing. they were "gaming the algorithms" because they suspected that the algorithms existed, and it wouldn't have worked if there was nothing to game.
    - angusgr 16y ago
      Set up some other dynamic sites (not indexed or linked anywhere) with random nonsense words in their URL strings, and a single link to some unrelated site. Click the link. Repeat, wait two weeks. Same as what google did, just not on google.com. Of course, if Bing has other "relevance" indicators (ala BingPageRank) then this might not work because it will rule the nonsense control site irrelevant linkspam, and not put it in (even Google's experiment only got a 9% success rate.) It would be better if someone like Facebook injected the test nonsense strings in their URLs. Something of this sort would at least show they tried to differentiate between "scrapes all clickstream data" and "uses Google's search results".
hackinthebochs 16y ago
Thank you. And this is precisely the problem with this whole fiasco--its just a bunch of conjecture and assertions. But because its from Google its taken with much more weight than it would be otherwise. Google has created precisely the conversation they wanted based on their assertions then gets indignant when Microsoft refuses to step into it.
stumm 16y ago
The article in the WSJ insinuates that it can come from either IE or the toolbar: Stefan Weitz, director of the Bing search engine at Microsoft, said in an interview the company studies how certain users interact with Google in order to improve Bing. It does this by looking at "clickstream data," or information that users of Microsoft's Internet Explorer or the Bing search toolbar voluntarily share with the company source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704124504576118510340787364.html#ixzz1Cwo4kxIQ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870412450457611...

by angusgr 16y ago

wzdd 16y ago

Fascinating. I was planning on doing the same thing and now I don't have to -- thank you for taking the time. As you mention, this stuff could all be happening server-side, of course.

mayank 16y ago

Excellent analysis, thank you, especially in the distinction between "suggested sites" and the Bing toolbar's behavior. I can't argue with your methods. However, I do differ with some of your conclusions: > The behaviour I’ve seen explains Google’s experiments, but does not support the accusation that Bing set out to copy Google. I don't think it's so much about "set out to copy Google" necessarily, as it is that they are explicitly parsing Google queries and results from the clickthrough data and using it (quite directly) for their own results. What they set out to do is immaterial given what is provably happening. > Bing Toolbar is tracking user clicks and Bing could use the result to improve search results. I don’t personally see any great distinction between this behaviour and Google’s many tracking, indexing and scraping endeavours which they use to improve their own search results. The difference is that Google has proven that the results of certain queries are being directly fed as Bing results. If Microsoft does the same with Google rankings, I'd see your point, but right now the evidence only points in one direction. > While I personally dislike the privacy implications, Bing Toolbar is pretty upfront about it when it gets installed (unlike much web page user tracking.) The fact that the tracking is plain HTTP not HTTPS, with the content in plaintext, would seem to indicate that they weren’t seeking to hide anything. I'd be interested to see if Google over HTTPS queries are being transmitted by the toolbar over HTTP. That would be a pretty serious privacy violation IMO, especially when you pair that with unencrypted wifi at Starbucks. See the AOL search log fiasco: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/weekend-web/aol-search-log.php http://www.somethingawful.com/d/weekend-web/aol-search-log.p...

angusgr 16y ago
The difference is that Google has proven that the results of certain queries are being directly fed as Bing results. If Microsoft does the same with Google rankings, I'd see your point, but right now the evidence only points in one direction. However, these are also the only experiments that have been run - outlier data, gaming the algorithms. If you only test one possible outlier scenario and don't control against any other, it's fairly ambitious to stand up and say "this is exactly what is happening!" IMHO it would have been better for Microsoft to respond along these lines, instead of going into counterspin mode, though.
- mayank 16y ago
  Claiming that Bing is copying outlier results is still a fair claim that Bing is copying results, especially considering that outlier queries are hard in general for search engines to get right: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1277939 http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1277939
- magicalist 16y ago
  what control are you suggesting? I read a suggestion elsewhere of using only Firefox for some queries and seeing if they show up, which is silly, of couse. without a possible mechanism of action there's no point of using something as a control; I might as well wait to see if the files on my disabled usb drive show up on bing. they were "gaming the algorithms" because they suspected that the algorithms existed, and it wouldn't have worked if there was nothing to game.
  - angusgr 16y ago
    Set up some other dynamic sites (not indexed or linked anywhere) with random nonsense words in their URL strings, and a single link to some unrelated site. Click the link. Repeat, wait two weeks. Same as what google did, just not on google.com. Of course, if Bing has other "relevance" indicators (ala BingPageRank) then this might not work because it will rule the nonsense control site irrelevant linkspam, and not put it in (even Google's experiment only got a 9% success rate.) It would be better if someone like Facebook injected the test nonsense strings in their URLs. Something of this sort would at least show they tried to differentiate between "scrapes all clickstream data" and "uses Google's search results".

hackinthebochs 16y ago

Thank you. And this is precisely the problem with this whole fiasco--its just a bunch of conjecture and assertions. But because its from Google its taken with much more weight than it would be otherwise. Google has created precisely the conversation they wanted based on their assertions then gets indignant when Microsoft refuses to step into it.

stumm 16y ago

The article in the WSJ insinuates that it can come from either IE or the toolbar: Stefan Weitz, director of the Bing search engine at Microsoft, said in an interview the company studies how certain users interact with Google in order to improve Bing. It does this by looking at "clickstream data," or information that users of Microsoft's Internet Explorer or the Bing search toolbar voluntarily share with the company source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704124504576118510340787364.html#ixzz1Cwo4kxIQ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870412450457611...