4 ms·

That's pretty messed up. What about the elderly and the poor? My grandmother (American) has never done one thing online in her life.

pedro2 7y ago
Credit cards counts as well. Probably cards in general.
- astura 7y ago
  Hell paper checks would probably count.
abracar 7y ago
It's not just for online transactions - it says "debit cards, credit cards, bank transfers and ecommerce".
mc32 7y ago
Syriza was right and Varoufakis should have called the ECB’s bluff but instead the ECB knew Greece was just pretending to call the bluff and just let them hang. They’d have been better off if they had executed Grexit than be saddled paying off German banks.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >They’d have been better off if they had executed Grexit than be saddled paying off German banks. Yeah, the scheme works like this: - Greek state was bankrupt - German banks and financial interests were over-exposed - Germany used EU and EU funds to "aid Greece". The funds are not used in Greece in any way, but to repaid the debt, so its basically EU -> Greece -> German banks. Germany benefits tremendously, Greece is merely kept on life support (still bankrupt, still with the same -and bigger debt as before the "aid", just with a credit line that goes straight to debtors, e.g. mostly exposed German banks), and Greek state is forced to sell assets for 1/10th the price for select German and other players (with political and economic pressure as to which those would be). - IMF piles on, pushing its own agenda (deregulation and other neoliberal/anti-welfare etc policies) So it's basically a swindle on the EU populations, to make them pay for German banks using Greece as an intermediary + a way to not let Greece default, but have it suffer a fate worse than default (mostly, selling everything to the lowest bidder and still being in the same piled-on debt). Well, that would be German elites. German people still paid like other Europeans for this scheme -- though the transaction also benefitted Germany economically, so somethings trickled.
  - hamilyon2 7y ago
    Well, not exactly. Debts of government were written-off about 50% https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis As far as I know that means that creditors from northern Europe paid 50% of debts. This is organized default and a deal package that came with it. I wouldn't say German banks were exactly winners here.
    - bad_user 7y ago
      It's the same story in many countries ... populist governments increase public deficit via corruption and salary increases in the public sectors in order to secure votes for the next election, then get loans to pay said debt and then everybody blames the evil banks, FMI, EU, they blame anybody else but themselves for supporting corruption and populism.
    - Xelbair 7y ago
      get 50%, or lose 100%? which one you would prefer?
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Debts of government were written-off about 50% That's a huge bargain for the banks compared to bankruptcy and its impact. And the Greek government (much less the people) still doesn't see that 50% write-off, since instead of defaulting and making a clean start with it, it's forced to take new lifeline loans, sell off assets at special ultra-low prices, and still repay everything. The current debt after a decade of "aid" is larger than the initial value - meanwhile their GPD has took an impact similar to that of war. For a private company or citizen, it would be the equivalent of not having the option to go bankrupt, but instead be sold to slavery.
  - disiplus 7y ago
    you are mostly right, there is a great book on this theme called "Crashed" "https://www.amazon.com/Crashed-Decade-Financial-Crises-Changed/dp/0670024937" https://www.amazon.com/Crashed-Decade-Financial-Crises-Chang... i't was the same story in most of the east europe. west banks where overexposed in the east europe, they pumped the "rising" markets in the east, and once the money stooped coming everything stopped. and now the west banks lobbied to give those local branches more modey so that they where not so exposed any more.
- YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
  I'm sorry but I have to disagree. A Greek exit from the Eurozone would have meant an economic catastrophy incomparable to what we have to endure now. For one thing, we are currently not technically bankrupt. In case of Grexit, we would be well and truly bankrupt. If I remember correctly, Varoufaki's stratagem was to claim that we would be better off outside the EZ and back to our own currency (the drachma) which we could devalue unlike the Euro. However, the drachma was valued to €340.750, when we joined the EZ [1]. That would have meant that our debt of ~€355.49 billion [2] we would have to pay 12,113,321,750,000‬ drachmas. Note that we would supposedly try to pay off this debt by devaluing the drachma, which means, by printing more of it. That in turns mean that we would have to carry out our internal transactions with a devalued drachma. I don't know how to calculate the devaluation that would be needed, but I think the predictions that we would be back to the WWII situation where a loaf of bread cost a trillion drachmas, that many made at the time, were not too wide off the mark. _____________________ [1] https://www.euro-hellas.gr/isotimia-euro-drahmis.html https://www.euro-hellas.gr/isotimia-euro-drahmis.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis Converted to Euros based on current exchange rate of 1 Dollar to 0.9 Euro.
  - mc32 7y ago
    Well, the idea was that Greece would default on their loans (not that they’d pay back in Drachmas). If not at least pay back a severely discounted debt like Argentina and others have done. It’s too bad he kinda chickened out and didn’t call the ECBs bluff. I say kinda because I don’t think he ever intended to execute Grexit as he had threatened, but was rather using it as “leverage” but they saw right through that. Syriza should have made him do it.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
      Yes, we could default on our loans. Then we would be free to borrow more at an eye-wateringly high rate, given that we would have no trust left with lenders. And we would have to service this debt with a drachma worth less than the paper it would be printed on. I don't see how anything good could come from turning our country into a financial pariah.
itismetheidiot 7y ago
all above 70 are exempted
smileysteve 7y ago
> What about the elderly and the poor? If it's on income, wouldn't this group always be approaching 100%?

pedro2 7y ago

Credit cards counts as well. Probably cards in general.

astura 7y ago
Hell paper checks would probably count.

abracar 7y ago

It's not just for online transactions - it says "debit cards, credit cards, bank transfers and ecommerce".

mc32 7y ago

Syriza was right and Varoufakis should have called the ECB’s bluff but instead the ECB knew Greece was just pretending to call the bluff and just let them hang. They’d have been better off if they had executed Grexit than be saddled paying off German banks.

coldtea 7y ago
>They’d have been better off if they had executed Grexit than be saddled paying off German banks. Yeah, the scheme works like this: - Greek state was bankrupt - German banks and financial interests were over-exposed - Germany used EU and EU funds to "aid Greece". The funds are not used in Greece in any way, but to repaid the debt, so its basically EU -> Greece -> German banks. Germany benefits tremendously, Greece is merely kept on life support (still bankrupt, still with the same -and bigger debt as before the "aid", just with a credit line that goes straight to debtors, e.g. mostly exposed German banks), and Greek state is forced to sell assets for 1/10th the price for select German and other players (with political and economic pressure as to which those would be). - IMF piles on, pushing its own agenda (deregulation and other neoliberal/anti-welfare etc policies) So it's basically a swindle on the EU populations, to make them pay for German banks using Greece as an intermediary + a way to not let Greece default, but have it suffer a fate worse than default (mostly, selling everything to the lowest bidder and still being in the same piled-on debt). Well, that would be German elites. German people still paid like other Europeans for this scheme -- though the transaction also benefitted Germany economically, so somethings trickled.
- hamilyon2 7y ago
  Well, not exactly. Debts of government were written-off about 50% https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis As far as I know that means that creditors from northern Europe paid 50% of debts. This is organized default and a deal package that came with it. I wouldn't say German banks were exactly winners here.
  - bad_user 7y ago
    It's the same story in many countries ... populist governments increase public deficit via corruption and salary increases in the public sectors in order to secure votes for the next election, then get loans to pay said debt and then everybody blames the evil banks, FMI, EU, they blame anybody else but themselves for supporting corruption and populism.
  - Xelbair 7y ago
    get 50%, or lose 100%? which one you would prefer?
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Debts of government were written-off about 50% That's a huge bargain for the banks compared to bankruptcy and its impact. And the Greek government (much less the people) still doesn't see that 50% write-off, since instead of defaulting and making a clean start with it, it's forced to take new lifeline loans, sell off assets at special ultra-low prices, and still repay everything. The current debt after a decade of "aid" is larger than the initial value - meanwhile their GPD has took an impact similar to that of war. For a private company or citizen, it would be the equivalent of not having the option to go bankrupt, but instead be sold to slavery.
- disiplus 7y ago
  you are mostly right, there is a great book on this theme called "Crashed" "https://www.amazon.com/Crashed-Decade-Financial-Crises-Changed/dp/0670024937" https://www.amazon.com/Crashed-Decade-Financial-Crises-Chang... i't was the same story in most of the east europe. west banks where overexposed in the east europe, they pumped the "rising" markets in the east, and once the money stooped coming everything stopped. and now the west banks lobbied to give those local branches more modey so that they where not so exposed any more.
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. A Greek exit from the Eurozone would have meant an economic catastrophy incomparable to what we have to endure now. For one thing, we are currently not technically bankrupt. In case of Grexit, we would be well and truly bankrupt. If I remember correctly, Varoufaki's stratagem was to claim that we would be better off outside the EZ and back to our own currency (the drachma) which we could devalue unlike the Euro. However, the drachma was valued to €340.750, when we joined the EZ [1]. That would have meant that our debt of ~€355.49 billion [2] we would have to pay 12,113,321,750,000‬ drachmas. Note that we would supposedly try to pay off this debt by devaluing the drachma, which means, by printing more of it. That in turns mean that we would have to carry out our internal transactions with a devalued drachma. I don't know how to calculate the devaluation that would be needed, but I think the predictions that we would be back to the WWII situation where a loaf of bread cost a trillion drachmas, that many made at the time, were not too wide off the mark. _____________________ [1] https://www.euro-hellas.gr/isotimia-euro-drahmis.html https://www.euro-hellas.gr/isotimia-euro-drahmis.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis Converted to Euros based on current exchange rate of 1 Dollar to 0.9 Euro.
- mc32 7y ago
  Well, the idea was that Greece would default on their loans (not that they’d pay back in Drachmas). If not at least pay back a severely discounted debt like Argentina and others have done. It’s too bad he kinda chickened out and didn’t call the ECBs bluff. I say kinda because I don’t think he ever intended to execute Grexit as he had threatened, but was rather using it as “leverage” but they saw right through that. Syriza should have made him do it.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
    Yes, we could default on our loans. Then we would be free to borrow more at an eye-wateringly high rate, given that we would have no trust left with lenders. And we would have to service this debt with a drachma worth less than the paper it would be printed on. I don't see how anything good could come from turning our country into a financial pariah.

itismetheidiot 7y ago

all above 70 are exempted

smileysteve 7y ago

> What about the elderly and the poor? If it's on income, wouldn't this group always be approaching 100%?