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Do you think it's better to start with the shit and end with the compliments, or to start with the compliments and end with the shit? I think it's better to san

Do you think it's better to start with the shit and end with the compliments, or to start with the compliments and end with the shit? I think it's better to sandwich the shit in-between, so yes, shit sandwiches don't work, but they work better than the alternatives.

GhostVII 7y ago
When I see people using the "sandwich" method on me it is usually pretty clear that the only reason they are giving compliments is just to soften their criticisms, so I would rather just get the criticisms on their own. Not every criticism or set of criticisms needs to be accompanied with something positive. If there are many points of feedback, some positive and some negative, I think they should be split into logical categories, mixing together positive and negative feedback, rather than trying to completely surround criticisms with compliments.
slowmovintarget 7y ago
This depends on culture actually. However you order it, though. Be honest and direct, and include corrections to give them a path forward. That's the best way to end on a positive note.
- BeetleB 7y ago
  > However you order it, though. Be honest and direct, and include corrections to give them a path forward. That's the best way to end on a positive note. OK, I think your comment is the best example of why lots of people don't like the shit sandwich. You're literally acknowledging that the goal was to deliver the shit and that the ordering is just a detail on delivering it (i.e. the details of the compliments are rather unimportant, but the details of the shit are). Furthermore, the goal wasn't even to deliver the shit, but to "include corrections". I would strongly recommend people read good communications books (e.g. Difficult Conversations, Crucial Conversations, etc). If your goal is to deliver a message, with corrective action already prepared, you are not having a discussion, nor are you having a conversation. What is generally missing in such interactions are: - Discussing your role in creating the other person's bad performance. Take this a number of degrees further (the role of your team, department, organization, etc) - Getting the other person's perspective - Identifying barriers to better performance And quite a bit more. Perhaps many managers are open to discuss all of the above, but they never indicate it, and their posture doesn't match. Certainly, delivering shit with corrective action at the ready does not.
  - slowmovintarget 7y ago
    Difficult Conversations is a very good book. I'd also recommend The Culture Map. Yes, you do want to have those conversations where you try to discover and work through the reasons behind behavioral or performance problems. When communicating the problem, however, you often need to communicate expectations. Discussing and listening to feedback on the expectations is vital. But clarity in presenting your view of the problem is just as vital, so as to be talking about the same thing. The initial discussion I was responding to was about delivery of an assessment. You should have many conversations and observations before you reach the point of assessment. Once there, you've moved on to instigation of correction or improvement (either for you or for the other person, often both).
BeetleB 7y ago
> Do you think it's better to start with the shit and end with the compliments, or to start with the compliments and end with the shit? I think it's better to sandwich the shit in-between False trichotomy? Set up a culture of honest feedback. And set up a culture promoting change vs sticks. Lots of other approaches. You can't divorce the culture from the presentation. If your focus is only on how you present your feedback without examining the wider culture, then you're focusing on theater.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
I prefer to get them separately and directly . Make a compliment and leave it there. Criticize and leave it there. If you often use the sandwich method I will just wait for what comes after the first part so the compliment is worthless. Don’t give a long speech before you get to the point.
- ctack 7y ago
  Spot on. I have to wait for the actual feedback and suggestions which to my managers credit are often useful and insightful and on point. But what precedes the feedback can be mind numbing.
- basch 7y ago
  An alternative is context, counter-argument, argument "we currently xxxx, and although yyyyy, zzzz is still better. Make the case against your own argument or for an alternative first, to show you understand both sides, can exhibit some empathy, and to prevent the inevitable rebuttal. If your argument isnt well received, youve still framed the counter-argument in a way that leaves the subsequent conversation about moving forward with it in an easier place, because now everyone knows you understand what is being asked of you.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    This is good. It opens a real discussion about the issue at hand.
Scarblac 7y ago
I just want the feedback. Here's what I saw happening, I think that was wrong because of this and that and you should try doing this other thing more instead. That's just helpful, no need to cushion it.

GhostVII 7y ago

When I see people using the "sandwich" method on me it is usually pretty clear that the only reason they are giving compliments is just to soften their criticisms, so I would rather just get the criticisms on their own. Not every criticism or set of criticisms needs to be accompanied with something positive. If there are many points of feedback, some positive and some negative, I think they should be split into logical categories, mixing together positive and negative feedback, rather than trying to completely surround criticisms with compliments.

slowmovintarget 7y ago

This depends on culture actually. However you order it, though. Be honest and direct, and include corrections to give them a path forward. That's the best way to end on a positive note.

BeetleB 7y ago
> However you order it, though. Be honest and direct, and include corrections to give them a path forward. That's the best way to end on a positive note. OK, I think your comment is the best example of why lots of people don't like the shit sandwich. You're literally acknowledging that the goal was to deliver the shit and that the ordering is just a detail on delivering it (i.e. the details of the compliments are rather unimportant, but the details of the shit are). Furthermore, the goal wasn't even to deliver the shit, but to "include corrections". I would strongly recommend people read good communications books (e.g. Difficult Conversations, Crucial Conversations, etc). If your goal is to deliver a message, with corrective action already prepared, you are not having a discussion, nor are you having a conversation. What is generally missing in such interactions are: - Discussing your role in creating the other person's bad performance. Take this a number of degrees further (the role of your team, department, organization, etc) - Getting the other person's perspective - Identifying barriers to better performance And quite a bit more. Perhaps many managers are open to discuss all of the above, but they never indicate it, and their posture doesn't match. Certainly, delivering shit with corrective action at the ready does not.
- slowmovintarget 7y ago
  Difficult Conversations is a very good book. I'd also recommend The Culture Map. Yes, you do want to have those conversations where you try to discover and work through the reasons behind behavioral or performance problems. When communicating the problem, however, you often need to communicate expectations. Discussing and listening to feedback on the expectations is vital. But clarity in presenting your view of the problem is just as vital, so as to be talking about the same thing. The initial discussion I was responding to was about delivery of an assessment. You should have many conversations and observations before you reach the point of assessment. Once there, you've moved on to instigation of correction or improvement (either for you or for the other person, often both).

BeetleB 7y ago

> Do you think it's better to start with the shit and end with the compliments, or to start with the compliments and end with the shit? I think it's better to sandwich the shit in-between False trichotomy? Set up a culture of honest feedback. And set up a culture promoting change vs sticks. Lots of other approaches. You can't divorce the culture from the presentation. If your focus is only on how you present your feedback without examining the wider culture, then you're focusing on theater.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

I prefer to get them separately and directly . Make a compliment and leave it there. Criticize and leave it there. If you often use the sandwich method I will just wait for what comes after the first part so the compliment is worthless. Don’t give a long speech before you get to the point.

ctack 7y ago
Spot on. I have to wait for the actual feedback and suggestions which to my managers credit are often useful and insightful and on point. But what precedes the feedback can be mind numbing.
basch 7y ago
An alternative is context, counter-argument, argument "we currently xxxx, and although yyyyy, zzzz is still better. Make the case against your own argument or for an alternative first, to show you understand both sides, can exhibit some empathy, and to prevent the inevitable rebuttal. If your argument isnt well received, youve still framed the counter-argument in a way that leaves the subsequent conversation about moving forward with it in an easier place, because now everyone knows you understand what is being asked of you.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  This is good. It opens a real discussion about the issue at hand.

Scarblac 7y ago

I just want the feedback. Here's what I saw happening, I think that was wrong because of this and that and you should try doing this other thing more instead. That's just helpful, no need to cushion it.