5 ms·

It's kind of sensitive information with regards to communications infrastructure. Not too dissimilar from various details of sensitive sites not being disclose

It's kind of sensitive information with regards to communications infrastructure. Not too dissimilar from various details of sensitive sites not being disclosed to reduce the risk of a coordinated attack. Not saying it's effective, but I can understand the reasoning.

microcolonel 7y ago
Regarding effectiveness, localizing an access point is trivial, so it's a matter of motivation.
toomuchtodo 7y ago
Tower data is public record. Here’s a search aggregator: http://www.antennasearch.com http://www.antennasearch.com The issue is that the baseband should be handshaking cryptographically with your provider’s towers to prevent MITM attempts, and no downgrade should be possible. Between eSIM and 5G, honestly surprised it’s not a standard yet.
- cartoonworld 7y ago
  Antennasearch is a good resource, and somehow the database update functions still work, but it appears unmaintained, somewhat janky, and the copyright notice reads 2004-2009. I resent the popup windows and the google maps integration is broken. Luckily, there are several community efforts to map the cell coverage. Check out https://opencellid.org/ https://opencellid.org/ which is an open source WiGLE-esque cell location collection. You can contribute with the TowerCollector[1] android app (also on fdroid). Mozilla also operates Mozilla Location Services[2] as an API for developers. People can contribute location anonymized data to Mozilla by a settings menu checkbox, or using their special app. WiGLE[3] of course includes cell tower detection in their wireless geographic logging suite. [0] https://opencellid.org/ https://opencellid.org/ [1] https://github.com/zamojski/TowerCollector/ https://github.com/zamojski/TowerCollector/ [2] https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://location.services.mozilla.com/ [3] https://www.wigle.net/ https://www.wigle.net/
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    Are they not registered with the FCC?
    - cartoonworld 7y ago
      A sibling comment noted the FCC rules for antenna structures. FCC regulates some of this, and the cell towers should all be on that list. That said, I don't know how to easily access the FCC information aside from a service like antennasearch or some other thing. There are also paid services for this sort of thing. IF you are searching for towers, also make use of a fiber search, as all these towers need fiber to run, unless they use backhauls or something which seems less likely. The towers are usually owned by something like COMTECH III, LLC and then the entities leasing the tower space operate everything else. In addition to the FCC, FAA, there should be a massive public paper trail for tower construction. The locality, state, and feds are involved in this. So, in a roundabout way, I think your thoughts were: "If FCC regulated and lists this, why the tower search crap?" The reason is that if you get the FCC, state, and local to OK your tower and use it for long range deer hunting, the FAA maps will still show your 220ft deer stand, but there are likely no cellular transceivers on the tower. On a cell tower there could easily be 2 today, and then 4 next month. So the location and use of the towers doesn't always coincide with the cellular network equipment hanging off it, which is what would need to be monitored. Also I'd wager that the open sensor method of opencellid, MLS, WiGLE will give you better data. If you are doing your own research, it would be greatly helpful to compare to the official lists, but you'll need to verify it anyhow. If anybody is doing this work I would be interested in knowing more about this landscape. Interesting stuff.
- ridaj 7y ago
  I believe only those antenna structures that are registered with FCC are public data, and that's only those that are tall enough (200ft), or close enough to an airport, to require a study by the FAA. IOW most urban and suburban cell sites, which tend to be mounted to existing low-rise building structures, aren't included. https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/support/antenna-structure-registration-asr-resources/antenna-structure-registration-asr https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/support/antenna-structure-regis...

microcolonel 7y ago

Regarding effectiveness, localizing an access point is trivial, so it's a matter of motivation.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

Tower data is public record. Here’s a search aggregator: http://www.antennasearch.com http://www.antennasearch.com The issue is that the baseband should be handshaking cryptographically with your provider’s towers to prevent MITM attempts, and no downgrade should be possible. Between eSIM and 5G, honestly surprised it’s not a standard yet.

cartoonworld 7y ago
Antennasearch is a good resource, and somehow the database update functions still work, but it appears unmaintained, somewhat janky, and the copyright notice reads 2004-2009. I resent the popup windows and the google maps integration is broken. Luckily, there are several community efforts to map the cell coverage. Check out https://opencellid.org/ https://opencellid.org/ which is an open source WiGLE-esque cell location collection. You can contribute with the TowerCollector[1] android app (also on fdroid). Mozilla also operates Mozilla Location Services[2] as an API for developers. People can contribute location anonymized data to Mozilla by a settings menu checkbox, or using their special app. WiGLE[3] of course includes cell tower detection in their wireless geographic logging suite. [0] https://opencellid.org/ https://opencellid.org/ [1] https://github.com/zamojski/TowerCollector/ https://github.com/zamojski/TowerCollector/ [2] https://location.services.mozilla.com/ https://location.services.mozilla.com/ [3] https://www.wigle.net/ https://www.wigle.net/
- nitrogen 7y ago
  Are they not registered with the FCC?
  - cartoonworld 7y ago
    A sibling comment noted the FCC rules for antenna structures. FCC regulates some of this, and the cell towers should all be on that list. That said, I don't know how to easily access the FCC information aside from a service like antennasearch or some other thing. There are also paid services for this sort of thing. IF you are searching for towers, also make use of a fiber search, as all these towers need fiber to run, unless they use backhauls or something which seems less likely. The towers are usually owned by something like COMTECH III, LLC and then the entities leasing the tower space operate everything else. In addition to the FCC, FAA, there should be a massive public paper trail for tower construction. The locality, state, and feds are involved in this. So, in a roundabout way, I think your thoughts were: "If FCC regulated and lists this, why the tower search crap?" The reason is that if you get the FCC, state, and local to OK your tower and use it for long range deer hunting, the FAA maps will still show your 220ft deer stand, but there are likely no cellular transceivers on the tower. On a cell tower there could easily be 2 today, and then 4 next month. So the location and use of the towers doesn't always coincide with the cellular network equipment hanging off it, which is what would need to be monitored. Also I'd wager that the open sensor method of opencellid, MLS, WiGLE will give you better data. If you are doing your own research, it would be greatly helpful to compare to the official lists, but you'll need to verify it anyhow. If anybody is doing this work I would be interested in knowing more about this landscape. Interesting stuff.
ridaj 7y ago
I believe only those antenna structures that are registered with FCC are public data, and that's only those that are tall enough (200ft), or close enough to an airport, to require a study by the FAA. IOW most urban and suburban cell sites, which tend to be mounted to existing low-rise building structures, aren't included. https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/support/antenna-structure-registration-asr-resources/antenna-structure-registration-asr https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/support/antenna-structure-regis...