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I hope e-scooters never make it out of infancy. Bikes are infinitely more practical and capable. They are more stable at all speeds. They can have significantly

I hope e-scooters never make it out of infancy. Bikes are infinitely more practical and capable. They are more stable at all speeds. They can have significantly more cargo carrying capacity. Bikes can be fitted (for the most part) with different tires/wheels to handle adverse conditions more easily than a scooter can. I hope for the infanticide of e-scooter transportation. It's a grotesque, subooptimal solution than exists in spite of a superior low-cost offering that is faaaar more mature.

mikestew 7y ago
I have several examples of both, and ride them to work and shopping. And I completely agree with you. Scooters are a hoot to ride, and if I don’t have to carry more than my backpack will hold, I’d rather commute on the scooter. But you need both hands, making even signaling a chore, and you can only carry what fits on your back. Scooters are no more difficult to ride than a bicycle, but they are much more difficult to ride safely than a bicycle. Compare to my electric bike with front and rear racks, a rack trunk, and a comfy seat and coffee cup holder. Scooters pack small, that’s about the only utilitarian plus they have going IMO.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
I bought a non-electric, but large-wheeled kick scooter a few months ago for getting around NYC. I absolutely love it. Bikes are a little annoying to stop and start; "walking" your bike for a short stretch requires physically dismounting. My scooter allows me to constantly transition between standing, walking, and riding as environmental conditions require. Also... it's stupid, but if I have to wear a helmet to do something, I'm not going to do it. I can't imagine riding a bike without a helmet, because it would be too easy to hit a bump and fall over. On my scooter, however, I feel relatively safe without a helmet. There have been a couple times when I've lost control of my scooter for some reason or another, but because I'm basically standing, I've just kind of jumped off.
- mntmoss 7y ago
  I basically agree. In my experience as a rider of one, the main downside of urban kick scooters is that they lack infrastructure. They're too slow to be bikes and play in traffic, but their existence tends to offend and frighten pedestrians, even though their control over acceleration is quite good, about as good as someone running. That quality makes them chimerical, one of the most unpredictable users of the road, and one of the factors in me hanging it up was having my day ruined by people getting upset at me. The biggest real dangers come from grooves and potholes(I took a spill that needed stitches in my younger days, trying to ride inside a groove) and from using pedestrian infrastructure at speed(cross-traffic can lead to near-misses where the car doesn't expect you to jump out so fast, or the bike expects you to plow through and you stop instead). The electrics are a nifty invention, but also one that makes their character more like bikes. They fit in a little better as all-purpose transports, but they also lack the simple convenience of a light kick scooter.
- riversflow 7y ago
  Hackerish tip for a fellow kick scooter rider. You can replace the bearings in most kick scooters with skateboard bearings for an easier ride. Most COTS ball bearings, aren’t optimized for force along the radius, skateboard bearings are. Also ceramic bearings don’t have the same thermal expansion which comes into play on a two wheel scooter. I have one of the small-wheeled ones with good bearings and it kicks ass—and it only weighs 4 pounds. All that said, you are only more comfortable on scooters. I’ve been riding bikes my whole life, and I tend to think the opposite. I have much more control and power on a bike that I’m basically wrapped around then a scooter I stand on. I’ve gotten in accidents on both without helmets and never had anything other than sore palms, also both my parents rode bikes for decades without helmets and neither sustained a significant head injury. Able-ness defitin
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    > You can replace the bearings in most kick scooters with skateboard bearings for an easier ride. Does this work even if you have large wheels? I have this: https://www.amazon.com/Micro-SA0034-Black-Scooter/dp/B001L2NBOI https://www.amazon.com/Micro-SA0034-Black-Scooter/dp/B001L2N... > I have much more control and power on a bike that I’m basically wrapped around then a scooter I stand on. If your bike falls over, what do you do? That's the thing that really makes me feel safer on my scooter. I was riding my scooter in the rain one time, and didn't realize that metal grates would be slippery. My scooter skid and completely fell over sideways. At some point while it was falling, I automatically hopped off and let go†. The result was my scooter lying sideways on the pavement, and me standing up unharmed, and I feel like that would have ended differently on a bike. Is that incorrect? †I assume that's what happened. It was so fast, I don't remember the exact moment—just the result.
    - riversflow 7y ago
      I put my hands in my pockets when I walk down the street because I’m confident if I do trip, I can catch myself on my feet, same principle. If I feel a crash coming (because I hit some road debris, for example) I can maneuver the bike in a split second to either prevent the fall entirely or mitigate it to just looking like an awkward stop. Another factor is that I've ridden enough to read the road and not make mistakes that even lead to tight situations. To extend the analogy, like knowing not to walk on a smooth manhole cover in the rain. As for the scooter, it looks like, yes it does work. According to the Questions section one person has done it and a separate user confirms its the right type of bearing. Search the questions for “Abec”. Should make a big difference. Have fun.
dkarl 7y ago
I agree that bicycles are a superior ride in every way, but a large number of people who don't use bikes do use scooters, and that's enough to make me a fan of them. Also, speaking as someone who rides a pretty vanilla road bike, the rental e-bikes feel bizarre to me. You call scooters "grotesque" and "suboptimal," but have you ever tried a Jump bike? I can't put my finger on why, but after renting them a few times out of curiosity, I now find myself walking past them and going an extra block to find a scooter if necessary. I prefer my own bicycle over either rental option, but I think rental e-bikes will have to get a lot better before they become as popular as rental scooters. And even my bike doesn't win in all categories. Both rental options (and scooters especially) have an advantage in parking quickly and worry-free at my destination. In any case, I'm happy to see a variety of options available. I hope rental scooters don't disappear until they are replaced by a better alternative that captures what is attractive about them.
- riversflow 7y ago
  >I can’t quite put my finger on why, but... 99% sure it’s that they all have that step-through geometry.
puPoh 7y ago
In many cities bikes get stolen within minutes from parking. Most e-scooters can be folded up and carried into shops, offices and so on.
fragmede 7y ago
> Bikes can be fitted (for the most part) with different tires/wheels Maybe there's a level of sensitive to being a bicyclist that I realize, but not that's something I've ever needed to consider mid-day at the office for my commute home. It's not like a hilly mountain bike trail suddenly grew out of the ground while I was on my lunch break that I unexpectedly need to cross in order to get home. (A planned detour the long way home is a different story.) Personal transport evolves as technology changes. From the original iron and wood bone-shakers during the Victorian era followed by the later penny-farthings, to the chain and derailleur drive-trains that are popular today. Bicycles assume that the locomotive energy comes from a person, and are designed around that. A useful amount of energy can now be stored in on-board batteries, with motors powerful enough to propel a person forwards, some are more powerful than a person can pedal. Some are even powerful enough for cars (requires a lot more batteries though). Electric motors are quieter and don't have exhaust like gasoline engines, either. (We also have self-balancing technology that lowers the learning curve for single-axle designs.) Henry Ford, possibly apocryphally, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” Shoving an electric motor on a bicycle's a faster horse. Maybe with some imagination we can do better than that.

mikestew 7y ago

I have several examples of both, and ride them to work and shopping. And I completely agree with you. Scooters are a hoot to ride, and if I don’t have to carry more than my backpack will hold, I’d rather commute on the scooter. But you need both hands, making even signaling a chore, and you can only carry what fits on your back. Scooters are no more difficult to ride than a bicycle, but they are much more difficult to ride safely than a bicycle. Compare to my electric bike with front and rear racks, a rack trunk, and a comfy seat and coffee cup holder. Scooters pack small, that’s about the only utilitarian plus they have going IMO.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

I bought a non-electric, but large-wheeled kick scooter a few months ago for getting around NYC. I absolutely love it. Bikes are a little annoying to stop and start; "walking" your bike for a short stretch requires physically dismounting. My scooter allows me to constantly transition between standing, walking, and riding as environmental conditions require. Also... it's stupid, but if I have to wear a helmet to do something, I'm not going to do it. I can't imagine riding a bike without a helmet, because it would be too easy to hit a bump and fall over. On my scooter, however, I feel relatively safe without a helmet. There have been a couple times when I've lost control of my scooter for some reason or another, but because I'm basically standing, I've just kind of jumped off.

mntmoss 7y ago
I basically agree. In my experience as a rider of one, the main downside of urban kick scooters is that they lack infrastructure. They're too slow to be bikes and play in traffic, but their existence tends to offend and frighten pedestrians, even though their control over acceleration is quite good, about as good as someone running. That quality makes them chimerical, one of the most unpredictable users of the road, and one of the factors in me hanging it up was having my day ruined by people getting upset at me. The biggest real dangers come from grooves and potholes(I took a spill that needed stitches in my younger days, trying to ride inside a groove) and from using pedestrian infrastructure at speed(cross-traffic can lead to near-misses where the car doesn't expect you to jump out so fast, or the bike expects you to plow through and you stop instead). The electrics are a nifty invention, but also one that makes their character more like bikes. They fit in a little better as all-purpose transports, but they also lack the simple convenience of a light kick scooter.
riversflow 7y ago
Hackerish tip for a fellow kick scooter rider. You can replace the bearings in most kick scooters with skateboard bearings for an easier ride. Most COTS ball bearings, aren’t optimized for force along the radius, skateboard bearings are. Also ceramic bearings don’t have the same thermal expansion which comes into play on a two wheel scooter. I have one of the small-wheeled ones with good bearings and it kicks ass—and it only weighs 4 pounds. All that said, you are only more comfortable on scooters. I’ve been riding bikes my whole life, and I tend to think the opposite. I have much more control and power on a bike that I’m basically wrapped around then a scooter I stand on. I’ve gotten in accidents on both without helmets and never had anything other than sore palms, also both my parents rode bikes for decades without helmets and neither sustained a significant head injury. Able-ness defitin
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  > You can replace the bearings in most kick scooters with skateboard bearings for an easier ride. Does this work even if you have large wheels? I have this: https://www.amazon.com/Micro-SA0034-Black-Scooter/dp/B001L2NBOI https://www.amazon.com/Micro-SA0034-Black-Scooter/dp/B001L2N... > I have much more control and power on a bike that I’m basically wrapped around then a scooter I stand on. If your bike falls over, what do you do? That's the thing that really makes me feel safer on my scooter. I was riding my scooter in the rain one time, and didn't realize that metal grates would be slippery. My scooter skid and completely fell over sideways. At some point while it was falling, I automatically hopped off and let go†. The result was my scooter lying sideways on the pavement, and me standing up unharmed, and I feel like that would have ended differently on a bike. Is that incorrect? †I assume that's what happened. It was so fast, I don't remember the exact moment—just the result.
  - riversflow 7y ago
    I put my hands in my pockets when I walk down the street because I’m confident if I do trip, I can catch myself on my feet, same principle. If I feel a crash coming (because I hit some road debris, for example) I can maneuver the bike in a split second to either prevent the fall entirely or mitigate it to just looking like an awkward stop. Another factor is that I've ridden enough to read the road and not make mistakes that even lead to tight situations. To extend the analogy, like knowing not to walk on a smooth manhole cover in the rain. As for the scooter, it looks like, yes it does work. According to the Questions section one person has done it and a separate user confirms its the right type of bearing. Search the questions for “Abec”. Should make a big difference. Have fun.

dkarl 7y ago

I agree that bicycles are a superior ride in every way, but a large number of people who don't use bikes do use scooters, and that's enough to make me a fan of them. Also, speaking as someone who rides a pretty vanilla road bike, the rental e-bikes feel bizarre to me. You call scooters "grotesque" and "suboptimal," but have you ever tried a Jump bike? I can't put my finger on why, but after renting them a few times out of curiosity, I now find myself walking past them and going an extra block to find a scooter if necessary. I prefer my own bicycle over either rental option, but I think rental e-bikes will have to get a lot better before they become as popular as rental scooters. And even my bike doesn't win in all categories. Both rental options (and scooters especially) have an advantage in parking quickly and worry-free at my destination. In any case, I'm happy to see a variety of options available. I hope rental scooters don't disappear until they are replaced by a better alternative that captures what is attractive about them.

riversflow 7y ago
>I can’t quite put my finger on why, but... 99% sure it’s that they all have that step-through geometry.

puPoh 7y ago

In many cities bikes get stolen within minutes from parking. Most e-scooters can be folded up and carried into shops, offices and so on.

fragmede 7y ago

> Bikes can be fitted (for the most part) with different tires/wheels Maybe there's a level of sensitive to being a bicyclist that I realize, but not that's something I've ever needed to consider mid-day at the office for my commute home. It's not like a hilly mountain bike trail suddenly grew out of the ground while I was on my lunch break that I unexpectedly need to cross in order to get home. (A planned detour the long way home is a different story.) Personal transport evolves as technology changes. From the original iron and wood bone-shakers during the Victorian era followed by the later penny-farthings, to the chain and derailleur drive-trains that are popular today. Bicycles assume that the locomotive energy comes from a person, and are designed around that. A useful amount of energy can now be stored in on-board batteries, with motors powerful enough to propel a person forwards, some are more powerful than a person can pedal. Some are even powerful enough for cars (requires a lot more batteries though). Electric motors are quieter and don't have exhaust like gasoline engines, either. (We also have self-balancing technology that lowers the learning curve for single-axle designs.) Henry Ford, possibly apocryphally, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” Shoving an electric motor on a bicycle's a faster horse. Maybe with some imagination we can do better than that.