6 ms·

The EU is over 3x as population dense as the USA. Any plan to make the USA transportation system to look like the EU's is doomed to failure from the beginning.

The EU is over 3x as population dense as the USA. Any plan to make the USA transportation system to look like the EU's is doomed to failure from the beginning. You need to be realistic. You are never going to win hearts and minds by railing against cars - Americans love their cars, and for good reason. A bus is not going to pick you up at your front door the second you walk out, and it's not going to drop you directly where you want to go. Cars are a tremendous convenience. And they are not nearly as expensive as people seem here seem to think - they are certainly cheaper than city rent. It may make sense to reduce the number of cars in city centers, but so few Americans live or go near city centers. You have to understand that HN is not a representative sample of the world population. Not everybody is a single, young person trying to start their own businesses.

ghaff 7y ago
And most people I know in Europe--especially those who are not just out of school--have cars. Europe is hardly some carless utopia even if public transit is, on the whole, better than in the US.
- davidw 7y ago
  It becomes a 'right tool for the job' situation. When we lived in Italy we: * Walked to the grocery store, nearby pizza place, kids' schools, doctor and barber. Because it's not illegal (zoning) to build those things near where people live! * Rode bikes downtown when the weather was decent * Took the tram downtown with the kids. * Took the car to go hiking in the hills or go visit my wife's parents in a small town 30 minutes away.
- Majestic121 7y ago
  YMMV. Most of the people I know in Paris either don't have a car, or use it very seldomly (think once a month) I think it's more about city vs countryside than europe vs US
  - ghaff 7y ago
    That's probably fair. Most of the people I know in Europe are a bit older and mostly don't live in e.g. central London.
- refurb 7y ago
  My experience as well from traveling to Europe. Plenty of cars, crazy traffic and no parking.
teucris 7y ago
HN is definitely not a representative sample of the world population. But HN is definitely not all single, young people trying to start their own businesses.
davidw 7y ago
How about we just stop subsidizing the shit out of cars? Let them pay their own way. Also, we do not need 'one size fits all' solutions for the entire US. What's appropriate for Wyoming might not be appropriate for the California Bay Area, which is plenty dense.
- tharne 7y ago
  They already do pay their own way. Gas taxes, tolls, vehicle registration, emissions fees, license fees, premium taxes on car insurance, traffic tickets, parking tickets, parking meters, sales tax on the purchase of a car. Very few things in the United States are taxed as exhaustively as private vehicles. I'm not sure when "subsidizing" came to mean "giving people something back for the money you took form them in the first place". I'd love to see a less auto-dependent society, but it's not accurate to say that drivers are subsidized. Perhaps one answer would be to get rid these myriad taxes and fees and just privatize the highways - make it fee for use. Right now, very few drivers ever see the true cost of their transportation choices because it's a little bit here, a little there, and so on.
  - davidw 7y ago
    No, they do not: https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/ https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/ && https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-o... Drivers are heavily subsidized.
    - criddell 7y ago
      Those are pretty interesting links. Thanks for sharing. I wonder if there's any way to come up with a net value overall for those subsidies? For example, pre-K education is fully subsidized in some states and it looks like the total economic results over a long time are very positive. How would you go about figuring out if those road subsidies are too high or too low?
      - 7y ago
greenonions 7y ago
Cars kill ~40000 Americans annually. Is that cheap? Criticizing cars is the only way to wake people up to the damage they have caused in our society. Sure, cars are wonderful for people with mobility issues. For the vast majority of us to design our cities around two ton death machines is a tragedy. Our cities would be dramatically cheaper to live in with fewer cars. Less parking and road space allows higher density. Transit is cheaper. Walking and biking is healthier and will increase life expectancy. Not everyone is driving-age, can afford a car or can afford to have parking. Car drivers are not a representative sample of the world population.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  > Criticizing cars is the only way to wake people up to the damage they have caused in our society. It's a way to make you look like an out-of-touch loony, who therefore gets ignored. If you want to reduce car use in the US, dial down the rhetoric, and work on increasing the convenience of not using a car. You're going to win more hearts and minds by making available something better than you are by constantly carping about the existing situation.
  - greenonions 7y ago
    Hard to mince words regarding the statistics on cars. You read and responded to the comment, so they clearly drive engagement. Walking, biking, taking the bus, carpooling are incredibly convenient for anyone willing to try, and I certainly support efforts to improve the facilities for these at all opportunities. There are uncomfortable truths that need to be addressed about cars, however, and you don't get anywhere by avoiding it. Imagine if there were an easily preventable disease causing ~40000 deaths every year that would actually save us money to solve and help the climate situation as well. Would you ask to temper the rhetoric?
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      Yes, because your rhetoric is counterproductive. People don't like being yelled at, and people don't like feeling forced. To get change, you need to persuade them to pull in your direction, not to give you the finger. Look, you need to say that we can prevent these deaths. You really do. But don't say it the way you did. You don't get buy-in that way.
earthboundkid 7y ago
There's no point in comparing the EU and the US as wholes. What matters is the density of a particular urban core. Many American cities have dense cores. Beyond the obvious big three off the top of my head some cities I have visited that could support some closed streets in the core: DC, SF, Baltimore, Philly, New Orleans, Minneapolis, Portland, Honolulu, Charleston, Dallas. No one is suggesting changing everything everywhere, but large cities do exist in every corner of the country.
noobermin 7y ago
Sure if you include rural areas. Some places in the US are just as dense as European cities, just woefully inefficiently managed. You can't fix LA traffic without getting people out of cars. You can't have both, you can't complain about congestion yet talk about how Americans love their cars. You get both the congestion and deaths and pollution and GHG's with over-reliance on cars and there is no magic fix to it other than having less people drive.

ghaff 7y ago

And most people I know in Europe--especially those who are not just out of school--have cars. Europe is hardly some carless utopia even if public transit is, on the whole, better than in the US.

davidw 7y ago
It becomes a 'right tool for the job' situation. When we lived in Italy we: * Walked to the grocery store, nearby pizza place, kids' schools, doctor and barber. Because it's not illegal (zoning) to build those things near where people live! * Rode bikes downtown when the weather was decent * Took the tram downtown with the kids. * Took the car to go hiking in the hills or go visit my wife's parents in a small town 30 minutes away.
Majestic121 7y ago
YMMV. Most of the people I know in Paris either don't have a car, or use it very seldomly (think once a month) I think it's more about city vs countryside than europe vs US
- ghaff 7y ago
  That's probably fair. Most of the people I know in Europe are a bit older and mostly don't live in e.g. central London.
refurb 7y ago
My experience as well from traveling to Europe. Plenty of cars, crazy traffic and no parking.

teucris 7y ago

HN is definitely not a representative sample of the world population. But HN is definitely not all single, young people trying to start their own businesses.

davidw 7y ago

How about we just stop subsidizing the shit out of cars? Let them pay their own way. Also, we do not need 'one size fits all' solutions for the entire US. What's appropriate for Wyoming might not be appropriate for the California Bay Area, which is plenty dense.

tharne 7y ago
They already do pay their own way. Gas taxes, tolls, vehicle registration, emissions fees, license fees, premium taxes on car insurance, traffic tickets, parking tickets, parking meters, sales tax on the purchase of a car. Very few things in the United States are taxed as exhaustively as private vehicles. I'm not sure when "subsidizing" came to mean "giving people something back for the money you took form them in the first place". I'd love to see a less auto-dependent society, but it's not accurate to say that drivers are subsidized. Perhaps one answer would be to get rid these myriad taxes and fees and just privatize the highways - make it fee for use. Right now, very few drivers ever see the true cost of their transportation choices because it's a little bit here, a little there, and so on.
- davidw 7y ago
  No, they do not: https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/ https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/ && https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-o... Drivers are heavily subsidized.
  - criddell 7y ago
    Those are pretty interesting links. Thanks for sharing. I wonder if there's any way to come up with a net value overall for those subsidies? For example, pre-K education is fully subsidized in some states and it looks like the total economic results over a long time are very positive. How would you go about figuring out if those road subsidies are too high or too low?
    - 7y ago

greenonions 7y ago

Cars kill ~40000 Americans annually. Is that cheap? Criticizing cars is the only way to wake people up to the damage they have caused in our society. Sure, cars are wonderful for people with mobility issues. For the vast majority of us to design our cities around two ton death machines is a tragedy. Our cities would be dramatically cheaper to live in with fewer cars. Less parking and road space allows higher density. Transit is cheaper. Walking and biking is healthier and will increase life expectancy. Not everyone is driving-age, can afford a car or can afford to have parking. Car drivers are not a representative sample of the world population.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
> Criticizing cars is the only way to wake people up to the damage they have caused in our society. It's a way to make you look like an out-of-touch loony, who therefore gets ignored. If you want to reduce car use in the US, dial down the rhetoric, and work on increasing the convenience of not using a car. You're going to win more hearts and minds by making available something better than you are by constantly carping about the existing situation.
- greenonions 7y ago
  Hard to mince words regarding the statistics on cars. You read and responded to the comment, so they clearly drive engagement. Walking, biking, taking the bus, carpooling are incredibly convenient for anyone willing to try, and I certainly support efforts to improve the facilities for these at all opportunities. There are uncomfortable truths that need to be addressed about cars, however, and you don't get anywhere by avoiding it. Imagine if there were an easily preventable disease causing ~40000 deaths every year that would actually save us money to solve and help the climate situation as well. Would you ask to temper the rhetoric?
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Yes, because your rhetoric is counterproductive. People don't like being yelled at, and people don't like feeling forced. To get change, you need to persuade them to pull in your direction, not to give you the finger. Look, you need to say that we can prevent these deaths. You really do. But don't say it the way you did. You don't get buy-in that way.

earthboundkid 7y ago

There's no point in comparing the EU and the US as wholes. What matters is the density of a particular urban core. Many American cities have dense cores. Beyond the obvious big three off the top of my head some cities I have visited that could support some closed streets in the core: DC, SF, Baltimore, Philly, New Orleans, Minneapolis, Portland, Honolulu, Charleston, Dallas. No one is suggesting changing everything everywhere, but large cities do exist in every corner of the country.

noobermin 7y ago

Sure if you include rural areas. Some places in the US are just as dense as European cities, just woefully inefficiently managed. You can't fix LA traffic without getting people out of cars. You can't have both, you can't complain about congestion yet talk about how Americans love their cars. You get both the congestion and deaths and pollution and GHG's with over-reliance on cars and there is no magic fix to it other than having less people drive.