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> the technological and class divide will only widen. Car friendly infrastructure widens the technological and class divide. They create a base state where you

> the technological and class divide will only widen. Car friendly infrastructure widens the technological and class divide. They create a base state where you are required to own and maintain an expensive piece of equipment in order to be an equal member of society. You are required to have parking for those cars, both at home and at your work. Forcing people to pay thousands of dollars per year to participate in society is highly repressive.

allovernow 7y ago
>Car friendly infrastructure widens the technological and class divide. They create a base state where you are required to own and maintain an expensive piece of equipment in order to be an equal member of society. Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it! Forget the fact that the vast majority of families own and benefit from personal transportation, the important thing is that we're all equal, even if the equal case is on average worse for everyone, right? >Forcing people to pay thousands of dollars per year to participate in society is highly repressive Is it also repressive to "force" people to hold down jobs to participate in society? To "force" people to commute to work? What about the fact that some people have the luxury of working from home? Should we make that illegal as well? I do not understand how people can be so focused on equality as to totally ignore the average, greater good. The nature of modern civilization is such that some degree of inequality is inevitable if one optimizes for median welfare.
- tomtheelder 7y ago
  > Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it! Forget the fact that the vast majority of families own and benefit from personal transportation, the important thing is that we're all equal, even if the equal case is on average worse for everyone, right? This is entirely the opposite of what the car-free movement is trying to accomplish. Car-free is strictly concerned dense urban areas, where private automobiles pretty strictly work against the common good. They are noisy, dangerous, polluting, and fail to create efficient transportation networks. In such places, there is very good reason to believe that car-free would improve quality of life and median welfare for residents. Obviously car-free is not a realistic option in suburban, semi-urban, and rural areas. No one who is advocating car-free is suggesting we do it there. Any increase in equality that comes along with it (honestly I'm skeptical it would make much of a difference) would be purely incidental.
  - ctdonath 7y ago
    Impression of the "car free" movement is complete elimination of vehicles, urban and rural alike. "Move closer to a train station" seems axiomatic.
    - ogre_codes 7y ago
      Your impression is largely wrong here. The goal here is to make dense urban areas safer, cleaner, and improve the quality of life in those dense urban areas where getting around without a car makes sense. That may mean people who live in sub-urban and rural areas have to stop at the fringe and catch a bus, walk, or pedal the last leg of their journey, but it doesn't mean they need to give up their cars for transport outside those dense urban areas.
  - ogre_codes 7y ago
    > Any increase in equality that comes along with it (honestly I'm skeptical it would make much of a difference) would be purely incidental. "Equality" is perhaps a poor choice of words here. I will say that for people on the cusp—mainly young and poor people—having a car break down can spiral into a really bad situation or even homelessness. When you can't afford to fix your car and your car is required to get to your job, the situation can become untenable quickly.
- crematoria 7y ago
  GP was merely refuting the one point made by GGP, that a lack of cars would somehow widen the class divide.
- ramshorns 7y ago
  > Is it also repressive to "force" people to hold down jobs to participate in society? Yes. > To "force" people to commute to work? Yes. > What about the fact that some people have the luxury of working from home? Should we make that illegal as well? No, that reduces traffic making places more livable.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  > Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it! This is a false dichotomy. I didn't suggest "Everyone must give up cars", only that the world should not be designed to FORCE everyone to drive cars. > Is it also repressive to "force" people to hold down jobs to participate in society? Hyperbole much? The two concepts aren't even remotely related. > I do not understand how people can be so focused on equality as to totally ignore the average, greater good. As if requiring cars is the greater good? It has been demonstrated in many many places that designing infrastructure which enables people to move around safely and reliably without the use of cars improves the quality of life for everyone.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  > The nature of modern civilization is such that some degree of inequality is inevitable if one optimizes for median welfare. I just can't get over how dystopian this comment is. Aside from being untrue, it is just horribly wrong headed and borderline evil. Essentially you are suggesting we cement the bottom quartile of society into eternal poverty. Not only is this cruel, it is ultimately terrible for society as a whole as the poor and homeless become increasingly desperate, and turn to crime and drugs; becoming an ever-increasing burden on society.
- noobermin 7y ago
  You can have a high average but have the majority of people suffer, just have a really long tail. I don't think you meant what you said. Regardless, your arguments that public good doesn't matter also nullifies the OP comments argument of widening the class divide by claiming class divides don't matter and should not be ameliorated.
dashundchen 7y ago
Not to mention making a car a requirement for transportation doesn't just exclude those who can't afford it - it excludes children, teenagers, elderly and disabled who can't get a license or car themselves.
- noobermin 7y ago
  A small thing, but to grind my own political axe here, but a topic that comes up a lot on HN is infantalization of the youth in America. I personally believe that sprawl (forcing children and teens to stay home since they really can't go anywhere if they can't drive) helps perpetuate it reducing their agency. It also as dashundchen leads to isolate elderly people and people with disabilities.
jjoonathan 7y ago
Decreasing someone's range increases their costs, a lot, because it effectively makes real estate more scarce and removes distant retail competition (in addition to increasing the real estate cost of retail). My intuition says the effect size is going to be a multiple of what it costs to maintain a cheap car.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  This has been demonstrated to be false. Probably one of the biggest reasons is real estate increases in the denser areas as parking infrastructure gets phased out. Parking is a massive waste of land.
  - jjoonathan 7y ago
    Oh? Link me. My guess: real estate costs go down short-term if you add a bunch of supply by getting rid of parking, and then they go right back up, plus some, once the market equilibrates. Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy having 5x the space at half the cost as when I lived in the city, with 5 grocery stores 10 minutes away instead of 2 grocery stores 30 minutes away. Not to mention parks, trees, and nature trails for running.
    - ogre_codes 7y ago
      The problem you describe is a fabricated hypothetical which has never happened in the real world. It's proven false by every single bike/ pedestrian friendly city in the world. Similarly, increasing range has had little to no positive effect on housing prices. Look at the insane real estate prices in the California Bay Area or LA which are both very car-first locations.
dahfizz 7y ago
> Forcing people to pay thousands of dollars per year to participate in society is highly repressive. You're right. We should charge them thousands of dollars per month so they can live downtown and walk everywhere instead. Problem solved!
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  Support a landlord near you! (Just kidding, you can't afford to. Enjoy your hike! Maybe in 30 years they'll get public transit working where you need it. You'll promptly get priced right out again, but at least you'll know your taxes went to a good cause!)
- ramshorns 7y ago
  We should improve public transit and urban design so that walkable places aren't in such short supply.
- devb 7y ago
  .... or have a functional mass transit network so that they don't have to live downtown.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  A bike costs less than $500 once and reliably gets you several miles fairly quickly. eBikes get you further faster and are also a fraction of the cost to own/ operate than a car.
  - dahfizz 7y ago
    And in the winter you're cold, in the summer you're sweaty, and in the rain you're wet. It's not like people buy cars because they want to waste money. A car is an absolutely massive increase in QOL, especially for the majority of Americans who dont live in city centers and who don't want to live in city centers.
    - ogre_codes 7y ago
      > A car is an absolutely massive increase in QOL When you build cities which requires cars to get around then owning a car is almost essential. When a city is built around other forms of transportation, not so much. All the insurmountable problems like rain and sun happen in the places where bikes are common, it turns out people are just fine without their cars when the infrastructure is good enough. The big problem with car friendly infrastructure is it takes up so much space, it makes almost every other form of transportation more dangerous and slower.

allovernow 7y ago

>Car friendly infrastructure widens the technological and class divide. They create a base state where you are required to own and maintain an expensive piece of equipment in order to be an equal member of society. Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it! Forget the fact that the vast majority of families own and benefit from personal transportation, the important thing is that we're all equal, even if the equal case is on average worse for everyone, right? >Forcing people to pay thousands of dollars per year to participate in society is highly repressive Is it also repressive to "force" people to hold down jobs to participate in society? To "force" people to commute to work? What about the fact that some people have the luxury of working from home? Should we make that illegal as well? I do not understand how people can be so focused on equality as to totally ignore the average, greater good. The nature of modern civilization is such that some degree of inequality is inevitable if one optimizes for median welfare.

tomtheelder 7y ago
> Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it! Forget the fact that the vast majority of families own and benefit from personal transportation, the important thing is that we're all equal, even if the equal case is on average worse for everyone, right? This is entirely the opposite of what the car-free movement is trying to accomplish. Car-free is strictly concerned dense urban areas, where private automobiles pretty strictly work against the common good. They are noisy, dangerous, polluting, and fail to create efficient transportation networks. In such places, there is very good reason to believe that car-free would improve quality of life and median welfare for residents. Obviously car-free is not a realistic option in suburban, semi-urban, and rural areas. No one who is advocating car-free is suggesting we do it there. Any increase in equality that comes along with it (honestly I'm skeptical it would make much of a difference) would be purely incidental.
- ctdonath 7y ago
  Impression of the "car free" movement is complete elimination of vehicles, urban and rural alike. "Move closer to a train station" seems axiomatic.
  - ogre_codes 7y ago
    Your impression is largely wrong here. The goal here is to make dense urban areas safer, cleaner, and improve the quality of life in those dense urban areas where getting around without a car makes sense. That may mean people who live in sub-urban and rural areas have to stop at the fringe and catch a bus, walk, or pedal the last leg of their journey, but it doesn't mean they need to give up their cars for transport outside those dense urban areas.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  > Any increase in equality that comes along with it (honestly I'm skeptical it would make much of a difference) would be purely incidental. "Equality" is perhaps a poor choice of words here. I will say that for people on the cusp—mainly young and poor people—having a car break down can spiral into a really bad situation or even homelessness. When you can't afford to fix your car and your car is required to get to your job, the situation can become untenable quickly.
crematoria 7y ago
GP was merely refuting the one point made by GGP, that a lack of cars would somehow widen the class divide.
ramshorns 7y ago
> Is it also repressive to "force" people to hold down jobs to participate in society? Yes. > To "force" people to commute to work? Yes. > What about the fact that some people have the luxury of working from home? Should we make that illegal as well? No, that reduces traffic making places more livable.
ogre_codes 7y ago
> Great, so if we can't all have something, none of us should have it! This is a false dichotomy. I didn't suggest "Everyone must give up cars", only that the world should not be designed to FORCE everyone to drive cars. > Is it also repressive to "force" people to hold down jobs to participate in society? Hyperbole much? The two concepts aren't even remotely related. > I do not understand how people can be so focused on equality as to totally ignore the average, greater good. As if requiring cars is the greater good? It has been demonstrated in many many places that designing infrastructure which enables people to move around safely and reliably without the use of cars improves the quality of life for everyone.
ogre_codes 7y ago
> The nature of modern civilization is such that some degree of inequality is inevitable if one optimizes for median welfare. I just can't get over how dystopian this comment is. Aside from being untrue, it is just horribly wrong headed and borderline evil. Essentially you are suggesting we cement the bottom quartile of society into eternal poverty. Not only is this cruel, it is ultimately terrible for society as a whole as the poor and homeless become increasingly desperate, and turn to crime and drugs; becoming an ever-increasing burden on society.
noobermin 7y ago
You can have a high average but have the majority of people suffer, just have a really long tail. I don't think you meant what you said. Regardless, your arguments that public good doesn't matter also nullifies the OP comments argument of widening the class divide by claiming class divides don't matter and should not be ameliorated.

dashundchen 7y ago

Not to mention making a car a requirement for transportation doesn't just exclude those who can't afford it - it excludes children, teenagers, elderly and disabled who can't get a license or car themselves.

noobermin 7y ago
A small thing, but to grind my own political axe here, but a topic that comes up a lot on HN is infantalization of the youth in America. I personally believe that sprawl (forcing children and teens to stay home since they really can't go anywhere if they can't drive) helps perpetuate it reducing their agency. It also as dashundchen leads to isolate elderly people and people with disabilities.

jjoonathan 7y ago

Decreasing someone's range increases their costs, a lot, because it effectively makes real estate more scarce and removes distant retail competition (in addition to increasing the real estate cost of retail). My intuition says the effect size is going to be a multiple of what it costs to maintain a cheap car.

ogre_codes 7y ago
This has been demonstrated to be false. Probably one of the biggest reasons is real estate increases in the denser areas as parking infrastructure gets phased out. Parking is a massive waste of land.
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  Oh? Link me. My guess: real estate costs go down short-term if you add a bunch of supply by getting rid of parking, and then they go right back up, plus some, once the market equilibrates. Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy having 5x the space at half the cost as when I lived in the city, with 5 grocery stores 10 minutes away instead of 2 grocery stores 30 minutes away. Not to mention parks, trees, and nature trails for running.
  - ogre_codes 7y ago
    The problem you describe is a fabricated hypothetical which has never happened in the real world. It's proven false by every single bike/ pedestrian friendly city in the world. Similarly, increasing range has had little to no positive effect on housing prices. Look at the insane real estate prices in the California Bay Area or LA which are both very car-first locations.

dahfizz 7y ago

> Forcing people to pay thousands of dollars per year to participate in society is highly repressive. You're right. We should charge them thousands of dollars per month so they can live downtown and walk everywhere instead. Problem solved!

jjoonathan 7y ago
Support a landlord near you! (Just kidding, you can't afford to. Enjoy your hike! Maybe in 30 years they'll get public transit working where you need it. You'll promptly get priced right out again, but at least you'll know your taxes went to a good cause!)
ramshorns 7y ago
We should improve public transit and urban design so that walkable places aren't in such short supply.
devb 7y ago
.... or have a functional mass transit network so that they don't have to live downtown.
ogre_codes 7y ago
A bike costs less than $500 once and reliably gets you several miles fairly quickly. eBikes get you further faster and are also a fraction of the cost to own/ operate than a car.
- dahfizz 7y ago
  And in the winter you're cold, in the summer you're sweaty, and in the rain you're wet. It's not like people buy cars because they want to waste money. A car is an absolutely massive increase in QOL, especially for the majority of Americans who dont live in city centers and who don't want to live in city centers.
  - ogre_codes 7y ago
    > A car is an absolutely massive increase in QOL When you build cities which requires cars to get around then owning a car is almost essential. When a city is built around other forms of transportation, not so much. All the insurmountable problems like rain and sun happen in the places where bikes are common, it turns out people are just fine without their cars when the infrastructure is good enough. The big problem with car friendly infrastructure is it takes up so much space, it makes almost every other form of transportation more dangerous and slower.