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Your data does not say what you are claiming it says. It is possible (or even probable) for the ultra-wealthy to have retirement accounts. Once we admit that, t

Your data does not say what you are claiming it says. It is possible (or even probable) for the ultra-wealthy to have retirement accounts. Once we admit that, then the obvious question becomes: Who do you think owns most of the money in those retirement accounts, the rich or the poor?

crazygringo 7y ago
By definition not the rich, since retirement accounts are capped by law to relatively low yearly contributions. Sure the ultra-wealthy can have their retirement accounts too (if they even bother), but they can't be any larger than anyone else's. Just a tiny tiny tiny sliver for them, really.
- take_a_breath 7y ago
  Unless there might be loopholes in those annual caps that the wealthy use to their tax advantage. Found one: ==The GAO report shows that the top 1% have saved $1 trillion in their IRAs, 22% of the total.== https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-shelter-hundreds-of-millions-in-an-ira-account-2014-09-19 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-shelter-hundreds-of...
hippich 7y ago
Retirement accounts are limited by the amount one might deposit annually. The most perhaps one can make is 19k in 401k and perhaps somehow max out SEP IRA - $56k (which I find quite tough to max out). Regular IRAs are out of questions, since at the income level dealing with 401k and SEP IRA, one does not get any benefits of funding regular IRA afaik. So... The best-case scenario is $75k per year someone might be able to stash away in a retirement account. Let's say someone is able to do it for 50 years - it leads to $3.75m. It is a decent amount for retirement in my opinion, but 1) it is unlikely to optimize it fully to get there, and 2) doesn't really look stratospheric to make a difference in retirement funds ownership categorizations (i.e. 0.1% owns large part of retirement investments).
- matthewdgreen 7y ago
  Mitt Romney’s IRA was valued at over $100m. Hell, this was widely publicized during an election. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE80N04E20120124 https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/...
- triceratops 7y ago
  Err...$75k/year over 50 years with 4% real rate of return (pretty modest) gives me over $11m.[1] 1. https://www.buyupside.com/calculators/recurringinvestmentcalculatordec07.htm https://www.buyupside.com/calculators/recurringinvestmentcal...
  - ahakki 7y ago
    > 4% real rate of return (pretty modest) Citation needed. My savings account has been paying 0.1% for about a decade now. They just introduced a new 0.0% rate on deposits over CHF 250'000 :)
    - jdminhbg 7y ago
      US retirement accounts are usually invested in stocks and bonds, not savings accounts.
    - triceratops 7y ago
      That's the wrong type of investment for a retirement account with a 50-year horizon. An account like that is (should) be invested in a diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds, such as one composed of low-cost index funds.
    - icedchai 7y ago
      My Vanguard account is showing 11.2% yearly return over the past 10 years. You need to take some risk.
- riversflow 7y ago
  $75k per year is a pretty insane amount of disposable income for most Americans, where median household income is 63k[1], per capita disposable income is 45k[2], and 78% of people report living paycheck-to-paycheck[3]. Anecdotally the only people I know who are funding their retirement well in there 20’s are generationally wealthy and got a house from mom and dad. Many, even those with some disposable income, live paycheck to paycheck. Also, as my sister comment points out, rich people can still have ridiculous retirement accounts. Saying that “everyone gets a piece in retirement” ignores a large portion of our society. [1]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N [2]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 [3]http://press.careerbuilder.com/2017-08-24-Living-Paycheck-to-Paycheck-is-a-Way-of-Life-for-Majority-of-U-S-Workers-According-to-New-CareerBuilder-Survey http://press.careerbuilder.com/2017-08-24-Living-Paycheck-to...
wutbrodo 7y ago
Since the ultra-wealthy are by definition a small portion of the population, and retirement contributions are capped at a low annual rate, it does in fact make the point that the parent commenter is trying to.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- take_a_breath 7y ago
  ==All told, 630,000 millionaires — about 1% of all IRA savers — cumulatively had more than $1 trillion in IRA accounts, accounting for 22% of all IRA assets.== https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-shelter-hundreds-of-millions-in-an-ira-account-2014-09-19 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-shelter-hundreds-of...
  - walshemj 7y ago
    So what a $millionaire is not in the super rich or even the rich class - well of middle class yes.
    - r_luna 7y ago
      1 million dollars in a 401k is not the same as a 1 million dollars in a house. When the median american makes 65k per year and has 45k in disposable income it takes a lot of luck to put a million dollars into a 401K. There are 300 million+ americans, of which only 650k have a million or more in the 401k. How can we call the top 650K middle class?
      - walshemj 7y ago
        You can not just count 401k which has stingy limits, I bet that are more than 650k with >1$m if you count other assets as well as the 401k (excluding your home)
        take_a_breath 7y ago

crazygringo 7y ago

By definition not the rich, since retirement accounts are capped by law to relatively low yearly contributions. Sure the ultra-wealthy can have their retirement accounts too (if they even bother), but they can't be any larger than anyone else's. Just a tiny tiny tiny sliver for them, really.

take_a_breath 7y ago
Unless there might be loopholes in those annual caps that the wealthy use to their tax advantage. Found one: ==The GAO report shows that the top 1% have saved $1 trillion in their IRAs, 22% of the total.== https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-shelter-hundreds-of-millions-in-an-ira-account-2014-09-19 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-shelter-hundreds-of...

hippich 7y ago

Retirement accounts are limited by the amount one might deposit annually. The most perhaps one can make is 19k in 401k and perhaps somehow max out SEP IRA - $56k (which I find quite tough to max out). Regular IRAs are out of questions, since at the income level dealing with 401k and SEP IRA, one does not get any benefits of funding regular IRA afaik. So... The best-case scenario is $75k per year someone might be able to stash away in a retirement account. Let's say someone is able to do it for 50 years - it leads to $3.75m. It is a decent amount for retirement in my opinion, but 1) it is unlikely to optimize it fully to get there, and 2) doesn't really look stratospheric to make a difference in retirement funds ownership categorizations (i.e. 0.1% owns large part of retirement investments).

matthewdgreen 7y ago
Mitt Romney’s IRA was valued at over $100m. Hell, this was widely publicized during an election. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE80N04E20120124 https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/...
triceratops 7y ago
Err...$75k/year over 50 years with 4% real rate of return (pretty modest) gives me over $11m.[1] 1. https://www.buyupside.com/calculators/recurringinvestmentcalculatordec07.htm https://www.buyupside.com/calculators/recurringinvestmentcal...
- ahakki 7y ago
  > 4% real rate of return (pretty modest) Citation needed. My savings account has been paying 0.1% for about a decade now. They just introduced a new 0.0% rate on deposits over CHF 250'000 :)
  - jdminhbg 7y ago
    US retirement accounts are usually invested in stocks and bonds, not savings accounts.
  - triceratops 7y ago
    That's the wrong type of investment for a retirement account with a 50-year horizon. An account like that is (should) be invested in a diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds, such as one composed of low-cost index funds.
  - icedchai 7y ago
    My Vanguard account is showing 11.2% yearly return over the past 10 years. You need to take some risk.
riversflow 7y ago
$75k per year is a pretty insane amount of disposable income for most Americans, where median household income is 63k[1], per capita disposable income is 45k[2], and 78% of people report living paycheck-to-paycheck[3]. Anecdotally the only people I know who are funding their retirement well in there 20’s are generationally wealthy and got a house from mom and dad. Many, even those with some disposable income, live paycheck to paycheck. Also, as my sister comment points out, rich people can still have ridiculous retirement accounts. Saying that “everyone gets a piece in retirement” ignores a large portion of our society. [1]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N [2]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 [3]http://press.careerbuilder.com/2017-08-24-Living-Paycheck-to-Paycheck-is-a-Way-of-Life-for-Majority-of-U-S-Workers-According-to-New-CareerBuilder-Survey http://press.careerbuilder.com/2017-08-24-Living-Paycheck-to...

wutbrodo 7y ago

Since the ultra-wealthy are by definition a small portion of the population, and retirement contributions are capped at a low annual rate, it does in fact make the point that the parent commenter is trying to.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
take_a_breath 7y ago
==All told, 630,000 millionaires — about 1% of all IRA savers — cumulatively had more than $1 trillion in IRA accounts, accounting for 22% of all IRA assets.== https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-shelter-hundreds-of-millions-in-an-ira-account-2014-09-19 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-shelter-hundreds-of...
- walshemj 7y ago
  So what a $millionaire is not in the super rich or even the rich class - well of middle class yes.
  - r_luna 7y ago
    1 million dollars in a 401k is not the same as a 1 million dollars in a house. When the median american makes 65k per year and has 45k in disposable income it takes a lot of luck to put a million dollars into a 401K. There are 300 million+ americans, of which only 650k have a million or more in the 401k. How can we call the top 650K middle class?
    - walshemj 7y ago
      You can not just count 401k which has stingy limits, I bet that are more than 650k with >1$m if you count other assets as well as the 401k (excluding your home)
      - take_a_breath 7y ago