5 ms·

Didn't Java fail spectacularly in the desktop application space?

by tus88 7y ago

aliswe 7y ago
Do really games count as desktop applications though?
pjmlp 7y ago
On consumer apps yes, specially due to lack of skill from many apps with programmer art. On the other hand, Android tablets and laptops are part of the new desktops.
al_ 7y ago
minecraft is written in Java I believe.
simion314 7y ago
It works fine for cross platform tools where how good the GUI looks is not a concern. As an example the last such app I seen was a tool to cleanup some save games for a video game that was Windows and Mac so the person that made the tool used Java and Mac users could benefit of the tool, For Windows only games most such tools use .Net and Windows Forms.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Good GUIs are possible, just that not everyone bothers to read books like "Filthy rich clients", having a designer on their team, or shelling out for component libraries like JGoodies.
  - simion314 7y ago
    What I mean is "good looking GUIs" , as a dev when I create a basic tool , something that are not for customers to see and complain about I don't care about fonts,paddings, "professional looking design" , you get your buttons and inputs and job is done. The tool I use daily for making money is Intellij, I don't f* care that the menus and buttons do not match my DEs, I would also prefer programs that use the system defaults rather then try to implement a better theming with custom buttons,colors and whatever some designer with big ego thinks is cool today(I can't understand why they like slim fonts with low contrast colors)
mhd 7y ago
I wouldn't say "spectacularly", as I don't remember that many attempts at true end-user apps. Enterprise is ripe with Swing. Nowadays of course the web has blunted our pain receptors for memory bloat and non-native UIs, thus you're probably running three Electron apps right now, compared to which Java is Win32ASM. And as others pointed out, for games it doesn't matter anyway. You're not building a AAA-game or something for a 6510, so GC pauses and memory consumption don't matter, either. Plus rapid-development, refactoring and a setup where OOP actually makes good sense. I wouldn't start Kotlin for that, but if you already know it, there's no reason not to use it.
- matsemann 7y ago
  GC is also not that big of an issue in these type of games if one's careful of using pools for the various objects, and then release stuff at appropriate times.
jillesvangurp 7y ago
It's more that Desktop development just fizzled out. These days if you are targeting fortune 500 companies with custom applications, you'd have to support multiple platforms in any case and the web makes that a no brainer. Add mobile to the mix and it's game over for desktop app developers. I'm sure there are still people doing it but it's becoming quite rare that that does not involve electron or similar with a lot of web technology. I haven't come across any projects involving desktop UIs in recent years. Plenty of native IOS/Android + web. But absolutely nothing that had desktop UI on a roadmap or backlog or even on a nice to have list. Java used to own that space when it still existed. IMHO that went away between 2005-2010 time frame. Before that you could get away with not supporting OSX (or Linux, ever the afterthought) and building stuff with Visual Basic, Delphi or whatever.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Laptops and tablets are doing quite well for desktop developers. And Android Java is still kind of Java, so Android running on ChromeOS or tablet plugged into a docking station, and one gets a desktop.
  - jillesvangurp 7y ago
    I wouldn't really count either as "Desktop". It's basically mobile development for phones and tablets, which I wasn't excluding. ChromeOS is nice but mostly about running web stuff plus whatever kind of works from the Android or Linux ecosystem. I don't think there are a lot of people targeting that specifically. Enterprise applications are almost exclusively web based. And consumer software that isn't games is mostly web based in electron or one of a few remaining big desktop products (e.g. MS Office or Adobe tools) and also a long tail of relatively niche stuff.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Last time I used a box or tower based desktop was in 2005, since then I only worked in offices where "desktops" are laptops, or more recently 2-1 hybrids, which most people use just like the desktops of yore plugged into docking stations.

Didn't Java fail spectacularly in the desktop application space?

by tus88 7y ago

Didn't Java fail spectacularly in the desktop application space?

aliswe 7y ago

Do really games count as desktop applications though?

pjmlp 7y ago

On consumer apps yes, specially due to lack of skill from many apps with programmer art. On the other hand, Android tablets and laptops are part of the new desktops.

al_ 7y ago

minecraft is written in Java I believe.

simion314 7y ago

It works fine for cross platform tools where how good the GUI looks is not a concern. As an example the last such app I seen was a tool to cleanup some save games for a video game that was Windows and Mac so the person that made the tool used Java and Mac users could benefit of the tool, For Windows only games most such tools use .Net and Windows Forms.

pjmlp 7y ago
Good GUIs are possible, just that not everyone bothers to read books like "Filthy rich clients", having a designer on their team, or shelling out for component libraries like JGoodies.
- simion314 7y ago
  What I mean is "good looking GUIs" , as a dev when I create a basic tool , something that are not for customers to see and complain about I don't care about fonts,paddings, "professional looking design" , you get your buttons and inputs and job is done. The tool I use daily for making money is Intellij, I don't f* care that the menus and buttons do not match my DEs, I would also prefer programs that use the system defaults rather then try to implement a better theming with custom buttons,colors and whatever some designer with big ego thinks is cool today(I can't understand why they like slim fonts with low contrast colors)

mhd 7y ago

I wouldn't say "spectacularly", as I don't remember that many attempts at true end-user apps. Enterprise is ripe with Swing. Nowadays of course the web has blunted our pain receptors for memory bloat and non-native UIs, thus you're probably running three Electron apps right now, compared to which Java is Win32ASM. And as others pointed out, for games it doesn't matter anyway. You're not building a AAA-game or something for a 6510, so GC pauses and memory consumption don't matter, either. Plus rapid-development, refactoring and a setup where OOP actually makes good sense. I wouldn't start Kotlin for that, but if you already know it, there's no reason not to use it.

matsemann 7y ago
GC is also not that big of an issue in these type of games if one's careful of using pools for the various objects, and then release stuff at appropriate times.

jillesvangurp 7y ago

It's more that Desktop development just fizzled out. These days if you are targeting fortune 500 companies with custom applications, you'd have to support multiple platforms in any case and the web makes that a no brainer. Add mobile to the mix and it's game over for desktop app developers. I'm sure there are still people doing it but it's becoming quite rare that that does not involve electron or similar with a lot of web technology. I haven't come across any projects involving desktop UIs in recent years. Plenty of native IOS/Android + web. But absolutely nothing that had desktop UI on a roadmap or backlog or even on a nice to have list. Java used to own that space when it still existed. IMHO that went away between 2005-2010 time frame. Before that you could get away with not supporting OSX (or Linux, ever the afterthought) and building stuff with Visual Basic, Delphi or whatever.

pjmlp 7y ago
Laptops and tablets are doing quite well for desktop developers. And Android Java is still kind of Java, so Android running on ChromeOS or tablet plugged into a docking station, and one gets a desktop.
- jillesvangurp 7y ago
  I wouldn't really count either as "Desktop". It's basically mobile development for phones and tablets, which I wasn't excluding. ChromeOS is nice but mostly about running web stuff plus whatever kind of works from the Android or Linux ecosystem. I don't think there are a lot of people targeting that specifically. Enterprise applications are almost exclusively web based. And consumer software that isn't games is mostly web based in electron or one of a few remaining big desktop products (e.g. MS Office or Adobe tools) and also a long tail of relatively niche stuff.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Last time I used a box or tower based desktop was in 2005, since then I only worked in offices where "desktops" are laptops, or more recently 2-1 hybrids, which most people use just like the desktops of yore plugged into docking stations.