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Do you have reason to believe that most women throughout history were not happy being homemakers and mothers? Do you believe women are happier now that they are

Do you have reason to believe that most women throughout history were not happy being homemakers and mothers? Do you believe women are happier now that they are having few or no children and are instead working to support a corporation that will kick them to the curb when they are no longer of use to it, rather than giving love and care to the most cherished people in their lives? Some women will prefer that sort of corporate lifestyle, for sure, and I don't think anyone is advocating for making it illegal for women to work. But you don't get a successful and happy society by catering to small minorities at the expense of the success and happiness of the overwhelming majority.

satyrnein 7y ago
Some women are happy being homemakers today, and some are happy in the workforce. (Same with men.) I'm not sure how we are currently catering to women in the workforce. If anything, it seems quite the opposite.
- HBKXNCUO 7y ago
  >Some women are happy being homemakers today, and some are happy in the workforce. Far more were happy being homemakers in the past. >I'm not sure how we are currently catering to women in the workforce. Affirmative action, equal opportunity laws, corporate funded programs to instruct men how to behave around women in the workplace, pervasive media praising women with jobs, praising the child-free husband-free life, on and on and on. You have to not be looking in order to not know about it.
  - satyrnein 7y ago
    Oh, I didn't think reducing discrimination counted as catering. You're not really saying increasing discrimination to previous levels would make women happier, are you?
    - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
      I think encouraging them to be homemakers rather than encouraging them to be in the workforce would make them happier, generally, and that we should strongly prioritize catering to the majority. Do you think women are happier now than women in previous generations? Because all of the polling I've seen says no. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/womens-rights-happiness-wellbeing-gender-gap https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl... for instance. You can always blame it on there not being enough equality yet, or once they've passed men in whatever metric you have your eye on, you can always blame it on more abstract things. But I don't think any amount of equality is going to make them as happy as they would be making their homes into warm and loving places for their families, and experiencing their children growing up and eventually having children of their own, in a society that appreciates them for doing just that. If the small minority of women that that doesn't work for have a worse time in the work force because society prioritized things other than making it nice for them, too bad. I don't care. You make society strong with rules that work for the majority.
      - satyrnein 7y ago
        You keep coming back to whether women were happier in the aggregate before. That's a great link, but I don't draw the same conclusions you do from it. We're in a transition period. Women who work still have to do the majority of housework and childrearing at home, due to their male partners' lack of participation. You exalt domestic virtues in women, so surely you must agree that these men should do more to make their homes warm and loving places, experience their children growing up, etc? Or is that not the same thing? You say you don't prioritize making workforce participation "nice" for women, but we're really just talking about making it "fair". You make society strong with rules that are fair for everyone. Ultimately, I believe women, as all human beings, are capable of making their own choices and deserve a fair playing field. I think your preferences unfairly limit the viability of one choice and tilt the scales toward the choice you like better, and your assertion that it's for their own good just serves to infantilize them.
        HBKXNCUO 7y ago

satyrnein 7y ago

Some women are happy being homemakers today, and some are happy in the workforce. (Same with men.) I'm not sure how we are currently catering to women in the workforce. If anything, it seems quite the opposite.

HBKXNCUO 7y ago
>Some women are happy being homemakers today, and some are happy in the workforce. Far more were happy being homemakers in the past. >I'm not sure how we are currently catering to women in the workforce. Affirmative action, equal opportunity laws, corporate funded programs to instruct men how to behave around women in the workplace, pervasive media praising women with jobs, praising the child-free husband-free life, on and on and on. You have to not be looking in order to not know about it.
- satyrnein 7y ago
  Oh, I didn't think reducing discrimination counted as catering. You're not really saying increasing discrimination to previous levels would make women happier, are you?
  - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
    I think encouraging them to be homemakers rather than encouraging them to be in the workforce would make them happier, generally, and that we should strongly prioritize catering to the majority. Do you think women are happier now than women in previous generations? Because all of the polling I've seen says no. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/womens-rights-happiness-wellbeing-gender-gap https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl... for instance. You can always blame it on there not being enough equality yet, or once they've passed men in whatever metric you have your eye on, you can always blame it on more abstract things. But I don't think any amount of equality is going to make them as happy as they would be making their homes into warm and loving places for their families, and experiencing their children growing up and eventually having children of their own, in a society that appreciates them for doing just that. If the small minority of women that that doesn't work for have a worse time in the work force because society prioritized things other than making it nice for them, too bad. I don't care. You make society strong with rules that work for the majority.
    - satyrnein 7y ago
      You keep coming back to whether women were happier in the aggregate before. That's a great link, but I don't draw the same conclusions you do from it. We're in a transition period. Women who work still have to do the majority of housework and childrearing at home, due to their male partners' lack of participation. You exalt domestic virtues in women, so surely you must agree that these men should do more to make their homes warm and loving places, experience their children growing up, etc? Or is that not the same thing? You say you don't prioritize making workforce participation "nice" for women, but we're really just talking about making it "fair". You make society strong with rules that are fair for everyone. Ultimately, I believe women, as all human beings, are capable of making their own choices and deserve a fair playing field. I think your preferences unfairly limit the viability of one choice and tilt the scales toward the choice you like better, and your assertion that it's for their own good just serves to infantilize them.
      - HBKXNCUO 7y ago