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This has always confused me. I don't understand why anyone works for Apple (or Amazon for that matter). If you're already selling your soul to big tech why not

This has always confused me. I don't understand why anyone works for Apple (or Amazon for that matter). If you're already selling your soul to big tech why not just go to Facebook or whatever and get paid more?

kick 7y ago
Apple is generally less immoral than Facebook and Amazon. Facebook is generally less immoral than Amazon, too, but Amazon has better PR.
- mensetmanusman 7y ago
  ? Apple is beholden to China more than the other two.
  - kick 7y ago
    Amazon has some of the worst working conditions and highest injury rates in the country for domestic workers that aren't engineers. https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-staggering-injury-1840025032 https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-sta... (independent) https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ (joint article with The Atlantic) I'm not stating that Apple is good (just look at Foxconn suicide rates as proof that it's an evil company), but it's generally speaking the lesser of three evils here.
    - hyperbovine 7y ago
      This isn't meant to excuse any bad behavior, but how many "domestic workers that aren't engineers" do they employ versus the rest of FAANG, and in what roles? If a huge portion of your business consists of plucking things off of shelves in warehouses then yes, of course you're going to have a higher rate of injury than the guy at Google whose job it is to wheel in new kegs of kombucha every week.
      - kick 7y ago
        In the entire country, not compared to just tech companies. Read the articles.
    - Jax2_Hannah 7y ago
      There are many other jobs other than plucking orders off a shelf. If I had to guess (which I am), it would be about 50% of the work here. Another large percentage of work is done on the ship dock, where there's more heavy lifting (but nothing over 50 lbs), and much more walking. I prefer this type of job because of how it's safer for me. I know how to lift heavy packages without getting a back strain. I don't know how to bend and squat multiple times in an hour even when I'm picking without injuring my back and/or knees. I have a knee problem from back when I was a runner in HS and college, and repetitive motions like that make it difficult for me to walk on. I still have yet to get accommodations for this, but I have been able to evade having to pick for several months, and I should be losing my permissions for that shortly. Needless to say, I don't think Amazon is the best employer, but I do work with people in authority who care. So it's worthwhile while it lasts.
      - dang 7y ago
        We've banned this account as well as several others because they only post comments to defend Amazon against criticisms, and all the comments are more or less the same. That's not what this site is for. You're welcome to participate on Hacker News if you want to submit stories and post comments about topics that gratify your intellectual curiosity. That is, you'd be welcome to participate as a true community member. But single-purpose accounts aren't allowed here, and certainly not single-purpose accounts for corporate agendas. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - DanBC 7y ago
      > (just look at Foxconn suicide rates as proof that it's an evil company) What are you counting, and how are you counting it? Why do you think the rate of death at Foxconn is any different to any other large manufacturing company?
      - kick 7y ago
        Take a look at them, these are just the ones that happened inside of the factories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
        DanBC 7y ago
        Again, why do you think a death by suicide inside the factory is unusual? Suicide is a leading cause of death in every single country in the world (albeit it doesn't always appear to be so because of the way it's counted) and so when you have a very large employer you're going to see many deaths in their workforce. Every death by suicide is a tragedy for that person and their loved ones, but I'm not seeing anything that says Foxconn have unusually large rates of deaths.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  As immoral as Facebook is, it isn't even close to Apple. It was Apple who gave control of Chinese users' iCloud keys to the Chinese government (and then used weasel words to pretend they didn't in news interviews). It was Apple who set up no-poaching agreements that suppressed tech workers' wages for years. Relative to that, Facebook's transgressions seem almost trivial.
  - tbyehl 7y ago
    And caused the prices of eBooks to rise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.

kick 7y ago

Apple is generally less immoral than Facebook and Amazon. Facebook is generally less immoral than Amazon, too, but Amazon has better PR.

mensetmanusman 7y ago
? Apple is beholden to China more than the other two.
- kick 7y ago
  Amazon has some of the worst working conditions and highest injury rates in the country for domestic workers that aren't engineers. https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-staggering-injury-1840025032 https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-sta... (independent) https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ (joint article with The Atlantic) I'm not stating that Apple is good (just look at Foxconn suicide rates as proof that it's an evil company), but it's generally speaking the lesser of three evils here.
  - hyperbovine 7y ago
    This isn't meant to excuse any bad behavior, but how many "domestic workers that aren't engineers" do they employ versus the rest of FAANG, and in what roles? If a huge portion of your business consists of plucking things off of shelves in warehouses then yes, of course you're going to have a higher rate of injury than the guy at Google whose job it is to wheel in new kegs of kombucha every week.
    - kick 7y ago
      In the entire country, not compared to just tech companies. Read the articles.
  - Jax2_Hannah 7y ago
    There are many other jobs other than plucking orders off a shelf. If I had to guess (which I am), it would be about 50% of the work here. Another large percentage of work is done on the ship dock, where there's more heavy lifting (but nothing over 50 lbs), and much more walking. I prefer this type of job because of how it's safer for me. I know how to lift heavy packages without getting a back strain. I don't know how to bend and squat multiple times in an hour even when I'm picking without injuring my back and/or knees. I have a knee problem from back when I was a runner in HS and college, and repetitive motions like that make it difficult for me to walk on. I still have yet to get accommodations for this, but I have been able to evade having to pick for several months, and I should be losing my permissions for that shortly. Needless to say, I don't think Amazon is the best employer, but I do work with people in authority who care. So it's worthwhile while it lasts.
    - dang 7y ago
      We've banned this account as well as several others because they only post comments to defend Amazon against criticisms, and all the comments are more or less the same. That's not what this site is for. You're welcome to participate on Hacker News if you want to submit stories and post comments about topics that gratify your intellectual curiosity. That is, you'd be welcome to participate as a true community member. But single-purpose accounts aren't allowed here, and certainly not single-purpose accounts for corporate agendas. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - DanBC 7y ago
    > (just look at Foxconn suicide rates as proof that it's an evil company) What are you counting, and how are you counting it? Why do you think the rate of death at Foxconn is any different to any other large manufacturing company?
    - kick 7y ago
      Take a look at them, these are just the ones that happened inside of the factories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
      - DanBC 7y ago
        Again, why do you think a death by suicide inside the factory is unusual? Suicide is a leading cause of death in every single country in the world (albeit it doesn't always appear to be so because of the way it's counted) and so when you have a very large employer you're going to see many deaths in their workforce. Every death by suicide is a tragedy for that person and their loved ones, but I'm not seeing anything that says Foxconn have unusually large rates of deaths.
lern_too_spel 7y ago
As immoral as Facebook is, it isn't even close to Apple. It was Apple who gave control of Chinese users' iCloud keys to the Chinese government (and then used weasel words to pretend they didn't in news interviews). It was Apple who set up no-poaching agreements that suppressed tech workers' wages for years. Relative to that, Facebook's transgressions seem almost trivial.
- tbyehl 7y ago
  And caused the prices of eBooks to rise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.