5 ms·

Eh, Apple has always been a big risk as an employee. They don't pay very well and they take secrecy (and the accompanying legal paperwork) very seriously. None

Eh, Apple has always been a big risk as an employee. They don't pay very well and they take secrecy (and the accompanying legal paperwork) very seriously. None of this is new; Apple has always been like this (even in the Jobs 1.0 days).

kbrackbill 7y ago
This has always confused me. I don't understand why anyone works for Apple (or Amazon for that matter). If you're already selling your soul to big tech why not just go to Facebook or whatever and get paid more?
- kick 7y ago
  Apple is generally less immoral than Facebook and Amazon. Facebook is generally less immoral than Amazon, too, but Amazon has better PR.
  - mensetmanusman 7y ago
    ? Apple is beholden to China more than the other two.
    - kick 7y ago
      Amazon has some of the worst working conditions and highest injury rates in the country for domestic workers that aren't engineers. https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-staggering-injury-1840025032 https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-sta... (independent) https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ (joint article with The Atlantic) I'm not stating that Apple is good (just look at Foxconn suicide rates as proof that it's an evil company), but it's generally speaking the lesser of three evils here.
      - hyperbovine 7y ago
        This isn't meant to excuse any bad behavior, but how many "domestic workers that aren't engineers" do they employ versus the rest of FAANG, and in what roles? If a huge portion of your business consists of plucking things off of shelves in warehouses then yes, of course you're going to have a higher rate of injury than the guy at Google whose job it is to wheel in new kegs of kombucha every week.
        kick 7y ago
        In the entire country, not compared to just tech companies. Read the articles.
      - Jax2_Hannah 7y ago
        There are many other jobs other than plucking orders off a shelf. If I had to guess (which I am), it would be about 50% of the work here. Another large percentage of work is done on the ship dock, where there's more heavy lifting (but nothing over 50 lbs), and much more walking. I prefer this type of job because of how it's safer for me. I know how to lift heavy packages without getting a back strain. I don't know how to bend and squat multiple times in an hour even when I'm picking without injuring my back and/or knees. I have a knee problem from back when I was a runner in HS and college, and repetitive motions like that make it difficult for me to walk on. I still have yet to get accommodations for this, but I have been able to evade having to pick for several months, and I should be losing my permissions for that shortly. Needless to say, I don't think Amazon is the best employer, but I do work with people in authority who care. So it's worthwhile while it lasts.
        dang 7y ago
        We've banned this account as well as several others because they only post comments to defend Amazon against criticisms, and all the comments are more or less the same. That's not what this site is for. You're welcome to participate on Hacker News if you want to submit stories and post comments about topics that gratify your intellectual curiosity. That is, you'd be welcome to participate as a true community member. But single-purpose accounts aren't allowed here, and certainly not single-purpose accounts for corporate agendas. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    As immoral as Facebook is, it isn't even close to Apple. It was Apple who gave control of Chinese users' iCloud keys to the Chinese government (and then used weasel words to pretend they didn't in news interviews). It was Apple who set up no-poaching agreements that suppressed tech workers' wages for years. Relative to that, Facebook's transgressions seem almost trivial.
    - tbyehl 7y ago
      And caused the prices of eBooks to rise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.
gumby 7y ago
They do pay well; they've been trying to recruit my gf for the past few years. She just doesn't want the commute from Palo Alto. For me (even if they would offer me a job, which they probably would not) the second worst would be the extreme secrecy and the worst would be the absolute prohibition of outside projects, even open source unless it were explicitly my job.
- novok 7y ago
  Compared to google, fb, netflix, etc for software engineers they don’t pay as well unless your a special interest.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  Apple pays at or below market rate for most technical positions (which can still be pretty high for certain roles). The "Steve Jobs way" has always been to find people motivated by something other than money, so it feels like an intentional choice.
- sillysaurusx 7y ago
  the worst would be the absolute prohibition of outside projects, even open source unless it were explicitly my job. Wait, what? If you work at Apple, you are absolutely prohibited from having outside projects, even open source projects that are explicitly not a part of your job? That's so surprising to me that it feels like it can't possibly be true. The best hackers all have some kind of open source projects, and Apple feels very supportive of open source work. How could they attract the best talent unless they were fine with people building open source projects?
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    They are very concerned about secrecy. It's just part of the culture; you know it when you sign on. Apple is quite supportive of Open Source in an official capacity. I would actually say that the best talent almost certainly does not work on Open Source projects in their spare time (though quite a few talented people do get paid to work on Open Source projects). The "best talent" tends to have other hobbies outside of coding -- well-rounded individuals make better team members, especially when working with non-technical team members. A lot of young engineers don't appreciate this until they're older.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kamaal 7y ago
>>Apple has always been like this (even in the Jobs 1.0 days). I remember reading in the Walter Isaacson's biography. Jobs would purposefully underpay or deny bonuses to top employees, especially top contributors to the products. This kind of a behaviour comes puts up a giant red flag. Do only as much as what it takes to not get fired.

kbrackbill 7y ago

This has always confused me. I don't understand why anyone works for Apple (or Amazon for that matter). If you're already selling your soul to big tech why not just go to Facebook or whatever and get paid more?

kick 7y ago
Apple is generally less immoral than Facebook and Amazon. Facebook is generally less immoral than Amazon, too, but Amazon has better PR.
- mensetmanusman 7y ago
  ? Apple is beholden to China more than the other two.
  - kick 7y ago
    Amazon has some of the worst working conditions and highest injury rates in the country for domestic workers that aren't engineers. https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-staggering-injury-1840025032 https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-sta... (independent) https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ (joint article with The Atlantic) I'm not stating that Apple is good (just look at Foxconn suicide rates as proof that it's an evil company), but it's generally speaking the lesser of three evils here.
    - hyperbovine 7y ago
      This isn't meant to excuse any bad behavior, but how many "domestic workers that aren't engineers" do they employ versus the rest of FAANG, and in what roles? If a huge portion of your business consists of plucking things off of shelves in warehouses then yes, of course you're going to have a higher rate of injury than the guy at Google whose job it is to wheel in new kegs of kombucha every week.
      - kick 7y ago
        In the entire country, not compared to just tech companies. Read the articles.
    - Jax2_Hannah 7y ago
      There are many other jobs other than plucking orders off a shelf. If I had to guess (which I am), it would be about 50% of the work here. Another large percentage of work is done on the ship dock, where there's more heavy lifting (but nothing over 50 lbs), and much more walking. I prefer this type of job because of how it's safer for me. I know how to lift heavy packages without getting a back strain. I don't know how to bend and squat multiple times in an hour even when I'm picking without injuring my back and/or knees. I have a knee problem from back when I was a runner in HS and college, and repetitive motions like that make it difficult for me to walk on. I still have yet to get accommodations for this, but I have been able to evade having to pick for several months, and I should be losing my permissions for that shortly. Needless to say, I don't think Amazon is the best employer, but I do work with people in authority who care. So it's worthwhile while it lasts.
      - dang 7y ago
        We've banned this account as well as several others because they only post comments to defend Amazon against criticisms, and all the comments are more or less the same. That's not what this site is for. You're welcome to participate on Hacker News if you want to submit stories and post comments about topics that gratify your intellectual curiosity. That is, you'd be welcome to participate as a true community member. But single-purpose accounts aren't allowed here, and certainly not single-purpose accounts for corporate agendas. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  As immoral as Facebook is, it isn't even close to Apple. It was Apple who gave control of Chinese users' iCloud keys to the Chinese government (and then used weasel words to pretend they didn't in news interviews). It was Apple who set up no-poaching agreements that suppressed tech workers' wages for years. Relative to that, Facebook's transgressions seem almost trivial.
  - tbyehl 7y ago
    And caused the prices of eBooks to rise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.

gumby 7y ago

They do pay well; they've been trying to recruit my gf for the past few years. She just doesn't want the commute from Palo Alto. For me (even if they would offer me a job, which they probably would not) the second worst would be the extreme secrecy and the worst would be the absolute prohibition of outside projects, even open source unless it were explicitly my job.

novok 7y ago
Compared to google, fb, netflix, etc for software engineers they don’t pay as well unless your a special interest.
wayoutthere 7y ago
Apple pays at or below market rate for most technical positions (which can still be pretty high for certain roles). The "Steve Jobs way" has always been to find people motivated by something other than money, so it feels like an intentional choice.
sillysaurusx 7y ago
the worst would be the absolute prohibition of outside projects, even open source unless it were explicitly my job. Wait, what? If you work at Apple, you are absolutely prohibited from having outside projects, even open source projects that are explicitly not a part of your job? That's so surprising to me that it feels like it can't possibly be true. The best hackers all have some kind of open source projects, and Apple feels very supportive of open source work. How could they attract the best talent unless they were fine with people building open source projects?
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  They are very concerned about secrecy. It's just part of the culture; you know it when you sign on. Apple is quite supportive of Open Source in an official capacity. I would actually say that the best talent almost certainly does not work on Open Source projects in their spare time (though quite a few talented people do get paid to work on Open Source projects). The "best talent" tends to have other hobbies outside of coding -- well-rounded individuals make better team members, especially when working with non-technical team members. A lot of young engineers don't appreciate this until they're older.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kamaal 7y ago

>>Apple has always been like this (even in the Jobs 1.0 days). I remember reading in the Walter Isaacson's biography. Jobs would purposefully underpay or deny bonuses to top employees, especially top contributors to the products. This kind of a behaviour comes puts up a giant red flag. Do only as much as what it takes to not get fired.