4 ms·

Let's say this adds 10 pounds to each seat times 150-400 seats. No way the airlines would go for it they are trying to cut weight from the planes to scrape ever

by rpiguy 7y ago

Let's say this adds 10 pounds to each seat times 150-400 seats. No way the airlines would go for it they are trying to cut weight from the planes to scrape every ounce of fuel economy out of the airframe. It is a non-starter. Airlines also have zero incentive to increase passenger comfort because most airlines operate near capacity (all flights full/overbooked) on most routes because of deregulation. You have no alternative, so why would they spend money? The best time to fly was immediately after 9/11. Airlines were failing because people stopped flying. Half of every flight was empty, and the airlines were fighting for your business adding technology, entertainment, and cutting fares. The airlines cared about you when they had to fight for your business. Within 10 years they were profitable again, at capacity again, and massively started to cut services (food, baggage, etc.) In no way am I advocating another 9/11 just to be clear. I am only reflecting on my own experiences flying.

AJ007 7y ago
2009 was pretty good too. During the next major recession/depression the cut back on both business and vacation travelers will be significant. Which, I think is ok to advocate for given we are now in the longest expansion in US history.
- menssen 7y ago
  It's okay... to advocate for a major economic recession to make flying more comfortable for those of us with somewhat recession-proof skills?
chrisseaton 7y ago
> Airlines also have zero incentive to increase passenger comfort Airlines seem in a constant fight for passenger comfort to me! Some have as many as five cabin tiers, attempting to make as many people as comfortable as their budgets will allow. There's competition to make the most luxurious lounges. Out-fitting of power and WiFi seems to have been effective. Whole new aircraft like the 787 are designed with passenger comfort as a priority. > In no way am I advocating another 9/11 Well at least you're being moderate then!
- zippergz 7y ago
  I would characterize this more as a fight for revenue maximization than passenger comfort, at least within the US for domestic flights. I fly premium classes quite a bit, and spend a lot of time in lounges. My experience is that a lot of these products launch with a bang, start out strong, but very quickly the cuts start. The airlines (or lounge operators) seem to constantly be working to see just how little they can get away with providing while still getting people to pay. International is a different game to some degree, but even there it’s not really all that unusual to see cuts to the premium products while still charging the same amount.
- notacoward 7y ago
  > Airlines seem in a constant fight for passenger comfort to me! Passenger comfort is what they like to talk about. That doesn't mean it's what they're really trying to optimize. They optimize for density too, but they're not about to advertise that. It's dangerous to mistake marketing for reality. So yeah, they'll add another cabin tier. Then they'll charge a fee for it and reduce the seat pitch elsewhere on their next order. It works really well when there are a few people who can pay for the upgrade out of their own pocket (most companies won't reimburse for it), but that's not really optimizing for comfort. And most people never get to use the lounges. It's good to be one of those extra-revenue types, but when I take advantage of those things I'm keenly aware that I'm exercising a form of privilege. For most people, air travel isn't getting more enjoyable.
ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
There are a bunch of reasons this prototype will fail, but weight doesn't seem like the top of the list. "The seat prototype on show at the launch was a carbon fiber, lightweight design -- but the designer insists the wings could be fitted to most existing seats, whatever their material." This article has raises a number of issues. The biggest being increase of turnaround time from the complexity of cleaning, and also problem with the food service tray when wings are deployed. https://thedesignair.net/2019/12/07/interspace-the-new-seat-by-new-territory-universal-movement-challenges-the-usual-premium-economy-proposition-but-is-it-ever-going-to-take-off/ https://thedesignair.net/2019/12/07/interspace-the-new-seat-... I think if these ever make it into planes it will probably be in first class... even though there is little need for it there. Or perhaps in economy if each seat only gets a single wing.
- chrisgd 7y ago
  It will be a 4th layer of premium economy!
sonofhans 7y ago
I hear what you mean about the empty planes. The best flying in my memory was in the 1970s. Everything was much more casual, less populated, and slower-paced. I remember eating freshly-fried eggs for breakfast on a 747, with metal silverware, in coach. After 9/11 I remember a lot of fear. I got searched a lot. Everyone was tense. All connection points became more isolated (e.g., you can no longer walk your family to the gate). Most non-white men I know immediately started having a worse time flying after 9/11. Now, there was also a smoking “section” in the back of the plane, and safety standards were nowhere near as robust as today, and everything was _way_ more expensive (relative to today). Sleeping was easier since the seats were wider. If the post-deregulation business model requires packing people in like little cattle, some sort of veal-cubicle isolation wings seem reasonable.
- holoduke 7y ago
  Yes and you paid like 4000 dollars for a London New York return ticket economy class. You can still fly relatively comfortable for that price. But they call it first class now.
Ayesh 7y ago
What about competition? In north and south Americas, there is not much competition, but Europe and Asia has a quite tough competition. Budget airlines like Air Asia have added free in-flight WiFi with local server streaming (so you can watch movies on your phone). Malindo (a semi-budget airline) serves food and free baggage on certain routes just to compete with Air Asia. Ryan and Wizz air (Europe) have a tough competition as well, and Wizz is flying to rather better airports unlike Ryan Air.

by rpiguy 7y ago

AJ007 7y ago

2009 was pretty good too. During the next major recession/depression the cut back on both business and vacation travelers will be significant. Which, I think is ok to advocate for given we are now in the longest expansion in US history.

menssen 7y ago
It's okay... to advocate for a major economic recession to make flying more comfortable for those of us with somewhat recession-proof skills?

chrisseaton 7y ago

> Airlines also have zero incentive to increase passenger comfort Airlines seem in a constant fight for passenger comfort to me! Some have as many as five cabin tiers, attempting to make as many people as comfortable as their budgets will allow. There's competition to make the most luxurious lounges. Out-fitting of power and WiFi seems to have been effective. Whole new aircraft like the 787 are designed with passenger comfort as a priority. > In no way am I advocating another 9/11 Well at least you're being moderate then!

zippergz 7y ago
I would characterize this more as a fight for revenue maximization than passenger comfort, at least within the US for domestic flights. I fly premium classes quite a bit, and spend a lot of time in lounges. My experience is that a lot of these products launch with a bang, start out strong, but very quickly the cuts start. The airlines (or lounge operators) seem to constantly be working to see just how little they can get away with providing while still getting people to pay. International is a different game to some degree, but even there it’s not really all that unusual to see cuts to the premium products while still charging the same amount.
notacoward 7y ago
> Airlines seem in a constant fight for passenger comfort to me! Passenger comfort is what they like to talk about. That doesn't mean it's what they're really trying to optimize. They optimize for density too, but they're not about to advertise that. It's dangerous to mistake marketing for reality. So yeah, they'll add another cabin tier. Then they'll charge a fee for it and reduce the seat pitch elsewhere on their next order. It works really well when there are a few people who can pay for the upgrade out of their own pocket (most companies won't reimburse for it), but that's not really optimizing for comfort. And most people never get to use the lounges. It's good to be one of those extra-revenue types, but when I take advantage of those things I'm keenly aware that I'm exercising a form of privilege. For most people, air travel isn't getting more enjoyable.

ghostbrainalpha 7y ago

There are a bunch of reasons this prototype will fail, but weight doesn't seem like the top of the list. "The seat prototype on show at the launch was a carbon fiber, lightweight design -- but the designer insists the wings could be fitted to most existing seats, whatever their material." This article has raises a number of issues. The biggest being increase of turnaround time from the complexity of cleaning, and also problem with the food service tray when wings are deployed. https://thedesignair.net/2019/12/07/interspace-the-new-seat-by-new-territory-universal-movement-challenges-the-usual-premium-economy-proposition-but-is-it-ever-going-to-take-off/ https://thedesignair.net/2019/12/07/interspace-the-new-seat-... I think if these ever make it into planes it will probably be in first class... even though there is little need for it there. Or perhaps in economy if each seat only gets a single wing.

chrisgd 7y ago
It will be a 4th layer of premium economy!

sonofhans 7y ago

I hear what you mean about the empty planes. The best flying in my memory was in the 1970s. Everything was much more casual, less populated, and slower-paced. I remember eating freshly-fried eggs for breakfast on a 747, with metal silverware, in coach. After 9/11 I remember a lot of fear. I got searched a lot. Everyone was tense. All connection points became more isolated (e.g., you can no longer walk your family to the gate). Most non-white men I know immediately started having a worse time flying after 9/11. Now, there was also a smoking “section” in the back of the plane, and safety standards were nowhere near as robust as today, and everything was _way_ more expensive (relative to today). Sleeping was easier since the seats were wider. If the post-deregulation business model requires packing people in like little cattle, some sort of veal-cubicle isolation wings seem reasonable.

holoduke 7y ago
Yes and you paid like 4000 dollars for a London New York return ticket economy class. You can still fly relatively comfortable for that price. But they call it first class now.

Ayesh 7y ago

What about competition? In north and south Americas, there is not much competition, but Europe and Asia has a quite tough competition. Budget airlines like Air Asia have added free in-flight WiFi with local server streaming (so you can watch movies on your phone). Malindo (a semi-budget airline) serves food and free baggage on certain routes just to compete with Air Asia. Ryan and Wizz air (Europe) have a tough competition as well, and Wizz is flying to rather better airports unlike Ryan Air.