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It's also sending a message to prospective employees to not take a job with Apple.

by jcadam 7y ago

rpiguy 7y ago
Most employees will not become entrepreneurs so I doubt it will factor much into the decision whether or not to work for Apple. Almost all employers in the US have that kind of non-compete clause and they are enforced more often than you would think, this is just making headlines because it involves a hot startup and corporate giant.
- sroussey 7y ago
  It’s more a statement that Apple owns its employees.
- not2b 7y ago
  In California non-compete agreements are severely restricted and much less enforceable, and that's one major reason Silicon Valley is in California and not elsewhere, as so many semiconductor companies were started by people jumping ship. That's one reason why, for anyone who wants to get some experience in a major company but has dreams of eventually starting their own company, California may be a better place to be despite the high cost of living.
  - filmgirlcw 7y ago
    Counterpoint: the anti-poaching agreements between Apple, Google, and others [1] shows that other than better non-compete statutes, SV isn’t any better than any other place, especially if the largest employers want to collude to prevent hiring one another’s employees. It’s unhelpful to fall into the trap of thinking the Valley is any better than any other place. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...
    - greglindahl 7y ago
      An illegal agreement that ended in 2009 is a poor proof of your point.
      - sneak 7y ago
        It is unreasonable to believe that they stopped simply because of that minor slap on the wrist. I’m sure they’re just much more careful now; tens of billions of dollars are on the line.
        not2b 7y ago
        Team leaders at the big companies now feel far more freedom to try to recruit people from big competitors, thanks in part to the poaching agreement being found to be illegal. So it did matter. You're launching a big project, you don't have the needed expertise in house, and a guy/gal you know who works for OtherBigFAANG would be a good fit. You call them. Back when the poaching agreement was in effect, HR would tell you you can't hire them. Now they won't, in fact, they can't.
- CalChris 7y ago
  Non-compete clauses are null and void in California. That doesn't mean they're not in the contracts and that doesn't mean that something non-compete-ish clause-ish isn't in there. Still I think this is a bad look for Apple.
  - singlow 7y ago
    Not null and void. But they are limited in scope.
wayoutthere 7y ago
Eh, Apple has always been a big risk as an employee. They don't pay very well and they take secrecy (and the accompanying legal paperwork) very seriously. None of this is new; Apple has always been like this (even in the Jobs 1.0 days).
- kbrackbill 7y ago
  This has always confused me. I don't understand why anyone works for Apple (or Amazon for that matter). If you're already selling your soul to big tech why not just go to Facebook or whatever and get paid more?
  - kick 7y ago
    Apple is generally less immoral than Facebook and Amazon. Facebook is generally less immoral than Amazon, too, but Amazon has better PR.
    - mensetmanusman 7y ago
      ? Apple is beholden to China more than the other two.
      - kick 7y ago
        Amazon has some of the worst working conditions and highest injury rates in the country for domestic workers that aren't engineers. https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-staggering-injury-1840025032 https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-sta... (independent) https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ (joint article with The Atlantic) I'm not stating that Apple is good (just look at Foxconn suicide rates as proof that it's an evil company), but it's generally speaking the lesser of three evils here.
        hyperbovine 7y ago
        This isn't meant to excuse any bad behavior, but how many "domestic workers that aren't engineers" do they employ versus the rest of FAANG, and in what roles? If a huge portion of your business consists of plucking things off of shelves in warehouses then yes, of course you're going to have a higher rate of injury than the guy at Google whose job it is to wheel in new kegs of kombucha every week.

It's also sending a message to prospective employees to not take a job with Apple.

by jcadam 7y ago

It's also sending a message to prospective employees to not take a job with Apple.

Most employees will not become entrepreneurs so I doubt it will factor much into the decision whether or not to work for Apple. Almost all employers in the US have that kind of non-compete clause and they are enforced more often than you would think, this is just making headlines because it involves a hot startup and corporate giant.

sroussey 7y ago
It’s more a statement that Apple owns its employees.
not2b 7y ago
In California non-compete agreements are severely restricted and much less enforceable, and that's one major reason Silicon Valley is in California and not elsewhere, as so many semiconductor companies were started by people jumping ship. That's one reason why, for anyone who wants to get some experience in a major company but has dreams of eventually starting their own company, California may be a better place to be despite the high cost of living.
- filmgirlcw 7y ago
  Counterpoint: the anti-poaching agreements between Apple, Google, and others [1] shows that other than better non-compete statutes, SV isn’t any better than any other place, especially if the largest employers want to collude to prevent hiring one another’s employees. It’s unhelpful to fall into the trap of thinking the Valley is any better than any other place. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...
  - greglindahl 7y ago
    An illegal agreement that ended in 2009 is a poor proof of your point.
    - sneak 7y ago
      It is unreasonable to believe that they stopped simply because of that minor slap on the wrist. I’m sure they’re just much more careful now; tens of billions of dollars are on the line.
      - not2b 7y ago
        Team leaders at the big companies now feel far more freedom to try to recruit people from big competitors, thanks in part to the poaching agreement being found to be illegal. So it did matter. You're launching a big project, you don't have the needed expertise in house, and a guy/gal you know who works for OtherBigFAANG would be a good fit. You call them. Back when the poaching agreement was in effect, HR would tell you you can't hire them. Now they won't, in fact, they can't.
CalChris 7y ago
Non-compete clauses are null and void in California. That doesn't mean they're not in the contracts and that doesn't mean that something non-compete-ish clause-ish isn't in there. Still I think this is a bad look for Apple.
- singlow 7y ago
  Not null and void. But they are limited in scope.

wayoutthere 7y ago

Eh, Apple has always been a big risk as an employee. They don't pay very well and they take secrecy (and the accompanying legal paperwork) very seriously. None of this is new; Apple has always been like this (even in the Jobs 1.0 days).

kbrackbill 7y ago
This has always confused me. I don't understand why anyone works for Apple (or Amazon for that matter). If you're already selling your soul to big tech why not just go to Facebook or whatever and get paid more?
- kick 7y ago
  Apple is generally less immoral than Facebook and Amazon. Facebook is generally less immoral than Amazon, too, but Amazon has better PR.
  - mensetmanusman 7y ago
    ? Apple is beholden to China more than the other two.
    - kick 7y ago
      Amazon has some of the worst working conditions and highest injury rates in the country for domestic workers that aren't engineers. https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-staggering-injury-1840025032 https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-amazons-own-numbers-reveal-sta... (independent) https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/behind-the-smiles/ (joint article with The Atlantic) I'm not stating that Apple is good (just look at Foxconn suicide rates as proof that it's an evil company), but it's generally speaking the lesser of three evils here.
      - hyperbovine 7y ago
        This isn't meant to excuse any bad behavior, but how many "domestic workers that aren't engineers" do they employ versus the rest of FAANG, and in what roles? If a huge portion of your business consists of plucking things off of shelves in warehouses then yes, of course you're going to have a higher rate of injury than the guy at Google whose job it is to wheel in new kegs of kombucha every week.