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"more education" does not equal to college education. Education can take many different forms. It can be career and technology education, internship and apprent

"more education" does not equal to college education. Education can take many different forms. It can be career and technology education, internship and apprenticeship, also self-study. College has an entrance barrier and is very disconnected to the outside world, so it has a strong signal effect. Also consider this: with four years of college time, you can get two career educations with real life industry experience and come with much less cost.

throwawayjava 7y ago
> with four years of college time, you can get two career educations with real life industry experience ...depending on both the student and the career. Many tech jobs require not much more than literacy, 6th grade algebra, and a tiny bit of grit. Most smart middle schoolers could make mid five figures slinging PHP part time. I did in early high school, and I'm not particularly smart or hard working. But there are many jobs, even in relatively easy fields like programming, where nonnegative productivity requires years of practice.
- asciident 7y ago
  I couldn't disagree more. College teaches people to learn independently, to communicate their problems and their progress effectively, to write emails professionally, to manage their time and deal with more work than can be handled, to mentor more junior people, etc. Sure, someone straight from high school could have some of these skills, but doing well at a university practically guarantees it.
  - vezycash 7y ago
    > College teaches people to learn independently, to communicate their problems... Not mine. Went to two Universities - both taught students to regurgitate what lecturers taught. Anything beyond that meant low marks.
    - irishcoffee 7y ago
      Shhh, the truth doesn't line up with the ideal, don't speak of it...
fzeroracer 7y ago
This seems a bit out of touch with the current career reality Americans face. Companies aren't training people nor do they want to train people, and 'career educations' generally don't exist outside of the trades and even that has been moving more towards in-class experience first, then training. College also increasingly ties in industry experience with in-class experience as companies are only willing to take on interns that are currently studying at colleges they're partnered with. Not to mention the way people use it as a networking opportunity and a chance to try out new things before having to dedicate themselves to a career they might despise.
- datashow 7y ago
  Career and technical education covers many fields, such as agriculture, business, education, service, military, mechanics, construction, programming, etc... Yes, field training does come later. However, in general, CTE provides more direct field experience than four-year college.
XorNot 7y ago
And never be exposed to a single social, political or ideological idea outside the spheres you happen to land in. Democracies depend on voters who are lucid, informed and rational. Modern technological civilization provides so much, and in very abstract ways, that it is non-optional that people be able to understand, or know they don't understand, massive swathes of broad-reaching ideas and concepts. Because democracies say "choose a candidate to represent you on all these things".
- teamtestbot 7y ago
  > never be exposed to a single social, political or ideological idea outside the spheres you happen to land in And you genuinely believe modern colleges provide this?
  - lotu 7y ago
    Yes, they do. Exposure doesn’t mean the student internalizes the ideas but yes collages absolutely expose people to a variety of view point.
    - dabbernaught420 7y ago
      Wasn't my experience taking courses in political science and political philosophy. Was exposed to a lot more viewpoints discussing with working class family, reading literature myself (reading primary sources and focused secondary sources was actually often strongly discouraged by my professors as an inefficient use of time, something that would of course change doing post-grad work, but that isn't what we're discussing here), etc. To the extent that viewpoints not part of the accepted doctrine are presented, they are presented poorly and without passion.
      - afthonos 7y ago
        > reading primary sources and focused secondary sources was actually often strongly discouraged by my professors as an inefficient use of time, something that would of course change doing post-grad work, but that isn't what we're discussing here I think that’s exactly right. Reading primary sources is much more complicated than reading undergrad-level sources: you need to read not just the source, but enough supporting material to understand the context the source was writing in, competing movements and how they were viewed at the time, etc. You simply don’t have time in a one-semester course on, say, political thought in the 19th century, to dive into the details of any one particular movement, be it abolitionism, women’s suffrage, or anything else. The scope of these questions is enormous, and whatever primary sources a student is likely to find will have tremendous selection bias, because the student won’t even know what sources they’re ignoring or what context they might be missing. Part of the professor’s job in undergraduate courses is to give the lay of the land. And if an enterprising student decides to put in the primary source work, to not let that one student derail the conversation into hyperfocusing on a single topic, while hopefully also preventing the student from getting hopelessly lost.

throwawayjava 7y ago

> with four years of college time, you can get two career educations with real life industry experience ...depending on both the student and the career. Many tech jobs require not much more than literacy, 6th grade algebra, and a tiny bit of grit. Most smart middle schoolers could make mid five figures slinging PHP part time. I did in early high school, and I'm not particularly smart or hard working. But there are many jobs, even in relatively easy fields like programming, where nonnegative productivity requires years of practice.

asciident 7y ago
I couldn't disagree more. College teaches people to learn independently, to communicate their problems and their progress effectively, to write emails professionally, to manage their time and deal with more work than can be handled, to mentor more junior people, etc. Sure, someone straight from high school could have some of these skills, but doing well at a university practically guarantees it.
- vezycash 7y ago
  > College teaches people to learn independently, to communicate their problems... Not mine. Went to two Universities - both taught students to regurgitate what lecturers taught. Anything beyond that meant low marks.
  - irishcoffee 7y ago
    Shhh, the truth doesn't line up with the ideal, don't speak of it...

fzeroracer 7y ago

This seems a bit out of touch with the current career reality Americans face. Companies aren't training people nor do they want to train people, and 'career educations' generally don't exist outside of the trades and even that has been moving more towards in-class experience first, then training. College also increasingly ties in industry experience with in-class experience as companies are only willing to take on interns that are currently studying at colleges they're partnered with. Not to mention the way people use it as a networking opportunity and a chance to try out new things before having to dedicate themselves to a career they might despise.

datashow 7y ago
Career and technical education covers many fields, such as agriculture, business, education, service, military, mechanics, construction, programming, etc... Yes, field training does come later. However, in general, CTE provides more direct field experience than four-year college.

XorNot 7y ago

And never be exposed to a single social, political or ideological idea outside the spheres you happen to land in. Democracies depend on voters who are lucid, informed and rational. Modern technological civilization provides so much, and in very abstract ways, that it is non-optional that people be able to understand, or know they don't understand, massive swathes of broad-reaching ideas and concepts. Because democracies say "choose a candidate to represent you on all these things".

teamtestbot 7y ago
> never be exposed to a single social, political or ideological idea outside the spheres you happen to land in And you genuinely believe modern colleges provide this?
- lotu 7y ago
  Yes, they do. Exposure doesn’t mean the student internalizes the ideas but yes collages absolutely expose people to a variety of view point.
  - dabbernaught420 7y ago
    Wasn't my experience taking courses in political science and political philosophy. Was exposed to a lot more viewpoints discussing with working class family, reading literature myself (reading primary sources and focused secondary sources was actually often strongly discouraged by my professors as an inefficient use of time, something that would of course change doing post-grad work, but that isn't what we're discussing here), etc. To the extent that viewpoints not part of the accepted doctrine are presented, they are presented poorly and without passion.
    - afthonos 7y ago
      > reading primary sources and focused secondary sources was actually often strongly discouraged by my professors as an inefficient use of time, something that would of course change doing post-grad work, but that isn't what we're discussing here I think that’s exactly right. Reading primary sources is much more complicated than reading undergrad-level sources: you need to read not just the source, but enough supporting material to understand the context the source was writing in, competing movements and how they were viewed at the time, etc. You simply don’t have time in a one-semester course on, say, political thought in the 19th century, to dive into the details of any one particular movement, be it abolitionism, women’s suffrage, or anything else. The scope of these questions is enormous, and whatever primary sources a student is likely to find will have tremendous selection bias, because the student won’t even know what sources they’re ignoring or what context they might be missing. Part of the professor’s job in undergraduate courses is to give the lay of the land. And if an enterprising student decides to put in the primary source work, to not let that one student derail the conversation into hyperfocusing on a single topic, while hopefully also preventing the student from getting hopelessly lost.