4 ms·

Where can I read more about how you came up with those numbers? I didn't knew that side of lightning.

by pouta 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bduerst 7y ago
It's napkin math based on the Bitcoin network's hard limitations of 4-7 transactions/second, so assuming 5 tx/s, then there's 432K transactions/day limit. Since lightning requires Bitcoin to settle transactions between parties, it means that the more users there are making transactions, the more it needs bitcoin. If it's just a handful of users making a million transactions, then there's no problem since lightning will do the math and then settle on Bitcoin with a handful of transactions. If there's a million users making a handful of transactions, well, then lightning needs to settle a few million transactions on Bitcoin (which takes weeks).
- Acrobatic_Road 7y ago
  > If there's a million users making a handful of transactions, well, then lightning needs to settle a few million transactions on Bitcoin (which takes weeks). Sorry, but you seem to be entirely ignorant of how lightning works. Lightning does not need to settle transactions on Bitcoin. If I pay someone using lightning then that payment is as good as good. The person who received the funds could go on and pay someone further. Notice there was no need to make an on-chain settlement transaction for this to work.
  - bduerst 7y ago
    > If I pay someone using lightning then that payment is as good as good. Lightning is an I.O.U. that is not good until you settle on Bitcoin. If you are not using Bitcoin to settle transactions, then you there is zero guarantee of getting paid. Stop spreading these lies about the Lightning network. Trading I.O.U.s on an obscure network is not a payment solution outside of sending money between your friends. For businesses and other untrusted parties, they will settle immediately on Bitcoin which is why Lightning is not being used seriously today. The same way businesses don't trade in third party checks today.
    - fghdft4t3t 7y ago
      Lightning isn't an IOU, its actual Bitcoin. What you are doing is trading payment states in channels, these payment channels contain real Bitcoin, locked in smart contracts. You can settle (and close) for your channel for Bitcoin any time you like, and there is a punishment mechanism if you try to cheat (steal) and replay an old channel state. This style of network, or a higher order version of it will certainly be the way that we further decentralize our economy and scale to every human and system. It is nonsensical to store full transactions between everything in an immutable ever growing data structure for all time. You can condense what needs to be stored forever in channels, or go further smaller still and store commitments+proofs. We need to move past the blockchain to store all the things model. It was cool when it was small, but we need to be thinking about how to implement higher order payment or economic concepts rather than raw txs. Finally, to your point about businesses not trading in third-party checks... Kinda! When the store takes your payment over the PCI network, the card holders bank and the vendors bank trade some payment state between each other, and delivery of funds can take days to clear. Its all businesses trading slates, e-checks, e-balance sheets. In essence lightning isn't too dissimilar to how things work now with electronic $s.
      - bduerst 7y ago
        A commitment to pay Bitcoin, that is signed or unsigned, cashable at any time, is an IOU. It's the same as a signed check, except lightning is passing itself as a network to spend the equivalent of third party checks. Businesses and untrusted parties do not do this, so they settle (cash checks immediately), which Lightning can't handle at scale with users. If Lightning wasn't really an IOU, then it wouldn't need Bitcoin to settle transactions, now would it?
- mr_woozy 7y ago
  >the more users there are making transactions, the more it needs bitcoin. whot? why?

Where can I read more about how you came up with those numbers? I didn't knew that side of lightning.

by pouta 7y ago

Where can I read more about how you came up with those numbers? I didn't knew that side of lightning.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bduerst 7y ago

It's napkin math based on the Bitcoin network's hard limitations of 4-7 transactions/second, so assuming 5 tx/s, then there's 432K transactions/day limit. Since lightning requires Bitcoin to settle transactions between parties, it means that the more users there are making transactions, the more it needs bitcoin. If it's just a handful of users making a million transactions, then there's no problem since lightning will do the math and then settle on Bitcoin with a handful of transactions. If there's a million users making a handful of transactions, well, then lightning needs to settle a few million transactions on Bitcoin (which takes weeks).

Acrobatic_Road 7y ago
> If there's a million users making a handful of transactions, well, then lightning needs to settle a few million transactions on Bitcoin (which takes weeks). Sorry, but you seem to be entirely ignorant of how lightning works. Lightning does not need to settle transactions on Bitcoin. If I pay someone using lightning then that payment is as good as good. The person who received the funds could go on and pay someone further. Notice there was no need to make an on-chain settlement transaction for this to work.
- bduerst 7y ago
  > If I pay someone using lightning then that payment is as good as good. Lightning is an I.O.U. that is not good until you settle on Bitcoin. If you are not using Bitcoin to settle transactions, then you there is zero guarantee of getting paid. Stop spreading these lies about the Lightning network. Trading I.O.U.s on an obscure network is not a payment solution outside of sending money between your friends. For businesses and other untrusted parties, they will settle immediately on Bitcoin which is why Lightning is not being used seriously today. The same way businesses don't trade in third party checks today.
  - fghdft4t3t 7y ago
    Lightning isn't an IOU, its actual Bitcoin. What you are doing is trading payment states in channels, these payment channels contain real Bitcoin, locked in smart contracts. You can settle (and close) for your channel for Bitcoin any time you like, and there is a punishment mechanism if you try to cheat (steal) and replay an old channel state. This style of network, or a higher order version of it will certainly be the way that we further decentralize our economy and scale to every human and system. It is nonsensical to store full transactions between everything in an immutable ever growing data structure for all time. You can condense what needs to be stored forever in channels, or go further smaller still and store commitments+proofs. We need to move past the blockchain to store all the things model. It was cool when it was small, but we need to be thinking about how to implement higher order payment or economic concepts rather than raw txs. Finally, to your point about businesses not trading in third-party checks... Kinda! When the store takes your payment over the PCI network, the card holders bank and the vendors bank trade some payment state between each other, and delivery of funds can take days to clear. Its all businesses trading slates, e-checks, e-balance sheets. In essence lightning isn't too dissimilar to how things work now with electronic $s.
    - bduerst 7y ago
      A commitment to pay Bitcoin, that is signed or unsigned, cashable at any time, is an IOU. It's the same as a signed check, except lightning is passing itself as a network to spend the equivalent of third party checks. Businesses and untrusted parties do not do this, so they settle (cash checks immediately), which Lightning can't handle at scale with users. If Lightning wasn't really an IOU, then it wouldn't need Bitcoin to settle transactions, now would it?
mr_woozy 7y ago
>the more users there are making transactions, the more it needs bitcoin. whot? why?