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I have a hard time believe its anything other than market makers providing the illusion of trades. Have you seen the price swings? If there was real volume an

I have a hard time believe its anything other than market makers providing the illusion of trades. Have you seen the price swings? If there was real volume and real transactions asides from trades, how would such insane swings be possible?

account73466 7y ago
I don't have a crystal ball to claim I know what happens but swings are often due to futures trades and exchanges interested in liquidating longs and shorts. I understand why exchanges are interested in wash trading but I don't know why market makers would provide any illusion since each transaction costs in order of 0.075% of its value.
- floatingatoll 7y ago
  Wash transactions are cheap compared to the rewards they gamble will occur.
  - account73466 7y ago
    Could you please provide an example?
    - floatingatoll 7y ago
      https://www.nyse.com/publicdocs/nyse/markets/nyse-arca/disciplinary-actions/2016/Electronic%20Transaction%20-%20Arca%20Decision.pdf https://www.nyse.com/publicdocs/nyse/markets/nyse-arca/disci...
- shepardrtc 7y ago
  I believe market makers are paid by exchanges to provide liquidity.
  - account73466 7y ago
    What you are referring to exists in regular stocks markets but not in cryptomarkets (at least, when we talk about relatively reputable exchanges). Take Binance as the largest crypto-exchange. Market makers are the ones who put buy or less limit orders. Market takers are the ones who put market order to "eat" limit orders. Market markers are not paid to provide liquidity. However, their fees decrease from, e.g., 0.075% per trade to say 0.030% per trade if they trade millions $ per month.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Melting_Harps 7y ago
> I have a hard time believe its anything other than market makers providing the illusion of trades Can you elaborate? I'm guessing you mean whales? Also, how is this any better or different for that matter, for the most stock exchanges like NYSE when most of it is Algo based bit trading? Bitcoin definitely suffers from volatility, how much you can attribute that to large holders (whales) is incredibly difficult; consider that the Japanese government, as were the US Marshalls, fill(ed) that role as they took over Mt. Gox and Silk Road respectively. Other local governments have also created large (relatively to a private individual) mining operations as job creator (Montana). So, again, I'll first ask you to define what a Market is, and what exactly constitutes a Marker Maker, because what you're describing is not exactly clear nor is it intelligible given the context of what the aforementioned are and their roles in price discovery.
- account73466 7y ago
  Market Maker is a well defined term, see my comment below. . I believe that he was not aware that reputable crypto exchanges don't pay market makers.
  - nicwilson 7y ago
    Marke_t_ Maker?
    - account73466 7y ago
      fixed, thanks
mathgenius 7y ago
Traders use stoploss orders when they enter a position. After a few days or weeks of this, there’s a huge pile of these stoploss orders, on both sides. A bit of movement is all it takes to trigger an avalanche.
- shepardrtc 7y ago
  That's true. I guess it kinda shows that Bitcoin isn't really being used out in the real world. If there was true utility, large sales would be eaten up quickly by entities needing to transfer money.
wruza 7y ago
I’ll save your time by telling a story from close buddies who do real sales (not exchange-exchange, but offline trading from hedged volumes). For few months there is basically zero volume in trades, one tiny deal a week and a bunch of no-payment competitor fakes. Nobody’s buying or selling right now, except for 0.01 “investors” who aren’t worth all the clicking. Last year was pretty active; solid volumes were sold at -6% for cash, now it just floats around the market price.
dehrmann 7y ago
I'm not sure what it would be, but there's a lot of tricks big players used to use to manipulate markets that the SEC outlawed over the years. I'm sure clever people saw that cryptocurrencies are unregulated, dusted off that playbook, and are cashing in.
llcoolv 7y ago
Well... Not only on an exchange the trades are real volume and transactions, but there is no other one. You do have a point about BTC adoption as a mean of payment lagging, but here the topic is trading on exchanges. And as soon as LF matures a bit this is also going to get solved.

account73466 7y ago

I don't have a crystal ball to claim I know what happens but swings are often due to futures trades and exchanges interested in liquidating longs and shorts. I understand why exchanges are interested in wash trading but I don't know why market makers would provide any illusion since each transaction costs in order of 0.075% of its value.

floatingatoll 7y ago
Wash transactions are cheap compared to the rewards they gamble will occur.
- account73466 7y ago
  Could you please provide an example?
  - floatingatoll 7y ago
    https://www.nyse.com/publicdocs/nyse/markets/nyse-arca/disciplinary-actions/2016/Electronic%20Transaction%20-%20Arca%20Decision.pdf https://www.nyse.com/publicdocs/nyse/markets/nyse-arca/disci...
shepardrtc 7y ago
I believe market makers are paid by exchanges to provide liquidity.
- account73466 7y ago
  What you are referring to exists in regular stocks markets but not in cryptomarkets (at least, when we talk about relatively reputable exchanges). Take Binance as the largest crypto-exchange. Market makers are the ones who put buy or less limit orders. Market takers are the ones who put market order to "eat" limit orders. Market markers are not paid to provide liquidity. However, their fees decrease from, e.g., 0.075% per trade to say 0.030% per trade if they trade millions $ per month.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Melting_Harps 7y ago

> I have a hard time believe its anything other than market makers providing the illusion of trades Can you elaborate? I'm guessing you mean whales? Also, how is this any better or different for that matter, for the most stock exchanges like NYSE when most of it is Algo based bit trading? Bitcoin definitely suffers from volatility, how much you can attribute that to large holders (whales) is incredibly difficult; consider that the Japanese government, as were the US Marshalls, fill(ed) that role as they took over Mt. Gox and Silk Road respectively. Other local governments have also created large (relatively to a private individual) mining operations as job creator (Montana). So, again, I'll first ask you to define what a Market is, and what exactly constitutes a Marker Maker, because what you're describing is not exactly clear nor is it intelligible given the context of what the aforementioned are and their roles in price discovery.

account73466 7y ago
Market Maker is a well defined term, see my comment below. . I believe that he was not aware that reputable crypto exchanges don't pay market makers.
- nicwilson 7y ago
  Marke_t_ Maker?
  - account73466 7y ago
    fixed, thanks

mathgenius 7y ago

Traders use stoploss orders when they enter a position. After a few days or weeks of this, there’s a huge pile of these stoploss orders, on both sides. A bit of movement is all it takes to trigger an avalanche.

shepardrtc 7y ago
That's true. I guess it kinda shows that Bitcoin isn't really being used out in the real world. If there was true utility, large sales would be eaten up quickly by entities needing to transfer money.

wruza 7y ago

I’ll save your time by telling a story from close buddies who do real sales (not exchange-exchange, but offline trading from hedged volumes). For few months there is basically zero volume in trades, one tiny deal a week and a bunch of no-payment competitor fakes. Nobody’s buying or selling right now, except for 0.01 “investors” who aren’t worth all the clicking. Last year was pretty active; solid volumes were sold at -6% for cash, now it just floats around the market price.

dehrmann 7y ago

I'm not sure what it would be, but there's a lot of tricks big players used to use to manipulate markets that the SEC outlawed over the years. I'm sure clever people saw that cryptocurrencies are unregulated, dusted off that playbook, and are cashing in.

llcoolv 7y ago

Well... Not only on an exchange the trades are real volume and transactions, but there is no other one. You do have a point about BTC adoption as a mean of payment lagging, but here the topic is trading on exchanges. And as soon as LF matures a bit this is also going to get solved.