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I’m a techlead who is in charge of mentoring the juniors on my team, most of who have a CS degree. There is a world of difference between work and a degree, pa

I’m a techlead who is in charge of mentoring the juniors on my team, most of who have a CS degree. There is a world of difference between work and a degree, particularly in the UK where a CS degree varies widely. It’s a surreal experience to be teaching people who on paper blow me away on academic qualifications on the other hand I’ve decades of producing code that produces value, experience with business side of things and knowing how to get stuff done mostly on time and mostly on budget which by the standards of our industry is pretty good. Not the only one at my company either, the senior dev/tech lead side of things is about 50/50 degrees/no degree depending. The CTO and Head of Software Engineering are firmly on the a CS degree is only a weak signal at best that someone will make an effective commercial developer. Not like we are doing crud of the week either, we have VR division, are solving complex problems and have about 4K employees (only about 100 devs though).

soup10 7y ago
Young people don't understand that succeeding in college and succeeding in the real world are two different things. Nobody cares if you graduated from mit with a 4.0. We care if you can succeed at the job and are worth the king's ransom great developers get in this market.
- dzamie 7y ago
  We find it "hard to understand" because job opening descriptions tell us that a degree and/or an excellent GPA are minimum requirements for anything that doesn't pay minimum. And to pre-empt the inevitable "5 years experience is just as good," that 5 years can't come unless you either a) got that degree 5 years ago to get a job for that experience, b) managed to befriend a hiring manager, or c) started a company. What an applicant can or can't do means nothing if they don't make it to the part of the hiring process where they can demonstrate it, at least without blatantly lying on their resume.
  - mrrsm 7y ago
    I think the other option is just networking and having a good portfolio that shows off your skills. Granted that leads you to point b that you made as you will likely befriend people who are in positions to hire you or suggest to others to hire you.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    I suspect there is a lot of lying on resumes, especially in CS where lots of professionals are self taught anyway. I also assume that very few places are actually verifying educational credentials.
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    My path was working minimum wage while doing side work for people, eventually I had more coming in from the side work than the day job but kept doing both because day job at least covered the rent/bills eventually someone I was doing side work for offered me a full time job at enough to match both day job and side job, three years later I moved on and have kept moving every 3 years or so since. At this point with my CV no one even asks about academics and hasn’t for a decade or so, the work/references speak for themselves. I’d hate to be young in this market though which is why I’m so happy a good chunk of my time is/will be spent on the mentoring side. Helping people get started in a rewarding career is itself rewarding.
  - ryanmercer 7y ago
    >or c) started a company. Minimum requirements - 4 year degree - 5 years experience Interview: - What are some of your major accomplishments? --- Applicant A (me, the following scenario is literal copy pastes from email exchanges, with identifying information changed): No degree, 13 years direct experience Company: "Hope all is well, Ryan! I wanted to extend a virtual wave and thank you for your interest in joining our team. You obviously have many of the skills we're looking for. However, for the -job title I applied to- role we require a BA/BS degree as well as previous experience in a broker role doing entries and customs classifications." At this point I forward the email to a friend Some days later, after friend shot the CEO an email semi-chastizing him for demanding degrees Company: "Hi Ryan, My name is -name-, I run Commercial Recruiting at -company-. I was hoping that I would be able to connect with you next week as I would love to chat about the -job title- role in -city-. We have made so recent changes to our role requirements and looking at your background, I think you could be an excellent fit!" Applicant interviews: asked "what is your superpower?" "what sort of major projects have you worked on?" "What major career accomplishments have you made?" This was for an entry-level position that I've been doing longer than the company has existed... Company: "Hope you're doing well, Ryan. I wanted to drop you a note to let you know that after discussions with the team, it seems we’re not quite the right fit for your skills at this time. " email received WHILE I was on the phone doing the interview, minutes before it concluded. -- Hypothetical applicant B: successfully exited a company unrelated, with no degree, and no experience in the field Company: "hey, you sold your company for xx million, well you're probably not right for this position but congrats you're our new president of enhanced quantum user AI learning experience! Congrats, uh, you're the first person in that division, we were really impressed with the AI company you sold to Megacorp, here's 20 million in VC money, make is some AI!" -- Hyp0thetical applicant C: has a degree, has no experience, has unrelated experience in CS Company: "hey, could you describe that project you mentoned in your CV, it sounds really neat. We see you also dod coding for XYZ Company, well you don't have any experience doing the job but that's ok we can teach you and it'd be great because you can go ahead and tell us how to improve our systems and possibly even do some of the coding yourself, congrats you're hired! Seriously though, don't worry, the complex legal paperwork and ever changing regulations isn't that big of a deal we'll just have someone help you for 6 months and check all of your submissions"
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  > Nobody cares if you graduated from mit with a 4.0 Well, besides the hordes of employers who would jump at the chance to hire somebody who graduated from mit with a 4.0 you mean...
  - duxup 7y ago
    I wonder what the % is who care a great deal. I suspect it is small as a % of employers, but their interest / pay may make it very much worthwhile.
troughway 7y ago
>It’s a surreal experience to be teaching people who on paper blow me away on academic qualifications [...] Can corroborate this experience, however I do not think it has much to do with having a degree as much as it does with having the motivation to learn and excel. Our industry has people who are in it to just coast through life as safely as they can, and it shows in the interview and the day-to-day work life. In my limited experience, the feistiest of developers have been those who have learned how to code well, and ship software at an age before they set out to do their degrees (and still went and did a traditional, 4-year CS degree). I have had a great pleasure of working alongside some of them, and to this day I have yet to see this level of aptitude be matched by people who got into CS as a matter of course for a job.

soup10 7y ago

Young people don't understand that succeeding in college and succeeding in the real world are two different things. Nobody cares if you graduated from mit with a 4.0. We care if you can succeed at the job and are worth the king's ransom great developers get in this market.

dzamie 7y ago
We find it "hard to understand" because job opening descriptions tell us that a degree and/or an excellent GPA are minimum requirements for anything that doesn't pay minimum. And to pre-empt the inevitable "5 years experience is just as good," that 5 years can't come unless you either a) got that degree 5 years ago to get a job for that experience, b) managed to befriend a hiring manager, or c) started a company. What an applicant can or can't do means nothing if they don't make it to the part of the hiring process where they can demonstrate it, at least without blatantly lying on their resume.
- mrrsm 7y ago
  I think the other option is just networking and having a good portfolio that shows off your skills. Granted that leads you to point b that you made as you will likely befriend people who are in positions to hire you or suggest to others to hire you.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  I suspect there is a lot of lying on resumes, especially in CS where lots of professionals are self taught anyway. I also assume that very few places are actually verifying educational credentials.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  My path was working minimum wage while doing side work for people, eventually I had more coming in from the side work than the day job but kept doing both because day job at least covered the rent/bills eventually someone I was doing side work for offered me a full time job at enough to match both day job and side job, three years later I moved on and have kept moving every 3 years or so since. At this point with my CV no one even asks about academics and hasn’t for a decade or so, the work/references speak for themselves. I’d hate to be young in this market though which is why I’m so happy a good chunk of my time is/will be spent on the mentoring side. Helping people get started in a rewarding career is itself rewarding.
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >or c) started a company. Minimum requirements - 4 year degree - 5 years experience Interview: - What are some of your major accomplishments? --- Applicant A (me, the following scenario is literal copy pastes from email exchanges, with identifying information changed): No degree, 13 years direct experience Company: "Hope all is well, Ryan! I wanted to extend a virtual wave and thank you for your interest in joining our team. You obviously have many of the skills we're looking for. However, for the -job title I applied to- role we require a BA/BS degree as well as previous experience in a broker role doing entries and customs classifications." At this point I forward the email to a friend Some days later, after friend shot the CEO an email semi-chastizing him for demanding degrees Company: "Hi Ryan, My name is -name-, I run Commercial Recruiting at -company-. I was hoping that I would be able to connect with you next week as I would love to chat about the -job title- role in -city-. We have made so recent changes to our role requirements and looking at your background, I think you could be an excellent fit!" Applicant interviews: asked "what is your superpower?" "what sort of major projects have you worked on?" "What major career accomplishments have you made?" This was for an entry-level position that I've been doing longer than the company has existed... Company: "Hope you're doing well, Ryan. I wanted to drop you a note to let you know that after discussions with the team, it seems we’re not quite the right fit for your skills at this time. " email received WHILE I was on the phone doing the interview, minutes before it concluded. -- Hypothetical applicant B: successfully exited a company unrelated, with no degree, and no experience in the field Company: "hey, you sold your company for xx million, well you're probably not right for this position but congrats you're our new president of enhanced quantum user AI learning experience! Congrats, uh, you're the first person in that division, we were really impressed with the AI company you sold to Megacorp, here's 20 million in VC money, make is some AI!" -- Hyp0thetical applicant C: has a degree, has no experience, has unrelated experience in CS Company: "hey, could you describe that project you mentoned in your CV, it sounds really neat. We see you also dod coding for XYZ Company, well you don't have any experience doing the job but that's ok we can teach you and it'd be great because you can go ahead and tell us how to improve our systems and possibly even do some of the coding yourself, congrats you're hired! Seriously though, don't worry, the complex legal paperwork and ever changing regulations isn't that big of a deal we'll just have someone help you for 6 months and check all of your submissions"
commandlinefan 7y ago
> Nobody cares if you graduated from mit with a 4.0 Well, besides the hordes of employers who would jump at the chance to hire somebody who graduated from mit with a 4.0 you mean...
- duxup 7y ago
  I wonder what the % is who care a great deal. I suspect it is small as a % of employers, but their interest / pay may make it very much worthwhile.

troughway 7y ago

>It’s a surreal experience to be teaching people who on paper blow me away on academic qualifications [...] Can corroborate this experience, however I do not think it has much to do with having a degree as much as it does with having the motivation to learn and excel. Our industry has people who are in it to just coast through life as safely as they can, and it shows in the interview and the day-to-day work life. In my limited experience, the feistiest of developers have been those who have learned how to code well, and ship software at an age before they set out to do their degrees (and still went and did a traditional, 4-year CS degree). I have had a great pleasure of working alongside some of them, and to this day I have yet to see this level of aptitude be matched by people who got into CS as a matter of course for a job.