3 ms·

Let's be very clear here, this thread is talking about nootropics, not therapy for existing conditions. I in no way made any claim to the effectiveness of these

Let's be very clear here, this thread is talking about nootropics, not therapy for existing conditions. I in no way made any claim to the effectiveness of these medications for their prescribed use.

balfirevic 7y ago
Medications for ADHD are literally used as nootropics. That is their mode of operation - they increase mental focus. They do it whether you have normal mental focus or lessened mental focus due to ADHD (in which case they are considered therapy) or whatever lifestyle issues you may have.
- bluntfang 7y ago
  We aren't talking about therapy for DSM-V conditions in this thread, is that more clear?
- fao_ 7y ago
  > That is their mode of operation - they increase mental focus. That's a misunderstanding of how ADHD works for most people. Most people with ADHD do not experience a deficiency with focus, but an inability to selectively focus on something. What someone with ADHD needs to do, they might not be able to focus on, and yet they may be able to hyperfocus on a task that they enjoy. Thus it can be seen that they do not lack the ability to focus, but merely the ability to control how they focus on something, and how intensely they focus on something. ADHD medication is focused on not improving focus, but improving their ability to control that focus. The brain for people with ADHD is very different, and people with ADHD generally do not find that stimulants act in the way that they do for people without ADHD. https://www.additudemag.com/understanding-adhd-hyperfocus/ https://www.additudemag.com/understanding-adhd-hyperfocus/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-distracted-couple/201411/adhd-hyperfocus-what-is-it-and-how-use-it https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-distracted-coupl... https://www.mattressreviews.com/adhd-and-sleep/ https://www.mattressreviews.com/adhd-and-sleep/ https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/571987 https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/571987
  - balfirevic 7y ago
    My source of information is this: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... At first reading of your comment it doesn't sound like it agrees with what you're saying, at least the part about having different effect on people without ADHD.
    - fao_ 7y ago
      It's pretty well demonstrated/documented that the psychopharmacology of people with ADHD is different to that of people without ADHD. Just because Scott Alexander overlooks that information and cherry-picks examples to dismiss based on anecdote (For example, see how he dismisses the one case with "kids are just weird" without even bothering to consider that the psychiatrist in question had more information about the child and what "regular behaviour" for that child in particular, is) doesn't make that less so. I actually deliberately stay away from SSC because it has "less wrong" brainworms present. Not only is that community regularly participated in by the founders of neoreactionary conservativism (scott is outspoken against it but it hasn't stopped his site and the LW community having large swathes of them), but they deliberately obfuscate their terms and have a distaste for any literature that could disprove their pet theories or how they constantly misapply bayes theorem, and they regularly produce articles based on spurious evidence that can sound convincing to laymen who do not know enough about the subjects in question to understand why their ideas are incorrect, or to rebutt them.

Let's be very clear here, this thread is talking about nootropics, not therapy for existing conditions. I in no way made any claim to the effectiveness of these medications for their prescribed use.

balfirevic 7y ago

Medications for ADHD are literally used as nootropics. That is their mode of operation - they increase mental focus. They do it whether you have normal mental focus or lessened mental focus due to ADHD (in which case they are considered therapy) or whatever lifestyle issues you may have.

bluntfang 7y ago
We aren't talking about therapy for DSM-V conditions in this thread, is that more clear?
fao_ 7y ago
> That is their mode of operation - they increase mental focus. That's a misunderstanding of how ADHD works for most people. Most people with ADHD do not experience a deficiency with focus, but an inability to selectively focus on something. What someone with ADHD needs to do, they might not be able to focus on, and yet they may be able to hyperfocus on a task that they enjoy. Thus it can be seen that they do not lack the ability to focus, but merely the ability to control how they focus on something, and how intensely they focus on something. ADHD medication is focused on not improving focus, but improving their ability to control that focus. The brain for people with ADHD is very different, and people with ADHD generally do not find that stimulants act in the way that they do for people without ADHD. https://www.additudemag.com/understanding-adhd-hyperfocus/ https://www.additudemag.com/understanding-adhd-hyperfocus/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-distracted-couple/201411/adhd-hyperfocus-what-is-it-and-how-use-it https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-distracted-coupl... https://www.mattressreviews.com/adhd-and-sleep/ https://www.mattressreviews.com/adhd-and-sleep/ https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/571987 https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/571987
- balfirevic 7y ago
  My source of information is this: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... At first reading of your comment it doesn't sound like it agrees with what you're saying, at least the part about having different effect on people without ADHD.
  - fao_ 7y ago
    It's pretty well demonstrated/documented that the psychopharmacology of people with ADHD is different to that of people without ADHD. Just because Scott Alexander overlooks that information and cherry-picks examples to dismiss based on anecdote (For example, see how he dismisses the one case with "kids are just weird" without even bothering to consider that the psychiatrist in question had more information about the child and what "regular behaviour" for that child in particular, is) doesn't make that less so. I actually deliberately stay away from SSC because it has "less wrong" brainworms present. Not only is that community regularly participated in by the founders of neoreactionary conservativism (scott is outspoken against it but it hasn't stopped his site and the LW community having large swathes of them), but they deliberately obfuscate their terms and have a distaste for any literature that could disprove their pet theories or how they constantly misapply bayes theorem, and they regularly produce articles based on spurious evidence that can sound convincing to laymen who do not know enough about the subjects in question to understand why their ideas are incorrect, or to rebutt them.