3 ms·

That would work about as well as sanctions. Did Cuba change? No. Did North Korea change? No. Did North Koreans starve? Yes. Did Iran change? No, and recent r

That would work about as well as sanctions. Did Cuba change? No. Did North Korea change? No. Did North Koreans starve? Yes. Did Iran change? No, and recent rumblings aren't related. Did Syria change? No. Did South Africa change? Not because of sanctions or boycotts, but because the severe/unjust racism was no longer bearable. Did Venezuela change? No. Do I need to list more? "Quick fix," cancel culture, collective punishment doesn't change policy, it exacts a toll on innocent bystanders who have little or no power to change anything.

RugnirViking 7y ago
What, historically, has worked reliably? Invasion? Sanctions are about the best tool that exists as far as I can see. There are some things to do with targeting money held overseas, or espionage, but i'm sure those options are already in full force by the time sanctions roll around.
- ozmodiar 7y ago
  It's pretty new, so not historical, but I'm interested to see how the Magnitsky Act could be applied in situations like this. It targets the wealthy ruling classes by seizing the assets they keep abroad. I'm not sure if it would be more effective, but at least the pain is felt by those in charge and not the general populace.
- duelingjello 7y ago
  Sanctions don't affect the leadership, they starve the people. Palestine, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, North Korea and many others... admit the truth: it's. hardly-ever. works. It only "feels" like a solution, but it's purely an idealistic panacea based on diffuse, passive-aggressive, starvation-causing harm. The problem and solution comes by first asking "what's worked and at what cost?" Monroe doctrine has been the over-arching ideology: US corporate interests > everyone else's. That's the problem: trying to control other countries and steal their resources, rather than dealing with other countries as equals by mutual-respect of sovereignties. ---- "Successes" (but failures in diplomatic and popularity terms) ---- - invasion (see: Smedley Butler's War is a Racket ) - genocide - death squads trained by SoA - arms trafficking in exchange for cocaine - illegally sending arms to right-wing death squads - CIA-backed coups, overt and covert ---- Failed ---- - US plutocrats' media-fought coup attempt recently Venezuela
- foxyv 7y ago
  A solution to what exactly? There are so many layers of politics to unravel in China it boggles the mind. Do you target the ruling class? Communist philosophy? Xenophobia? Each has a distinct solution that is extremely hard to execute and takes immense effort and economic dedication over decades or centuries. Hence the urge to advocate for short term "doing something" solutions that have no effect and require no sacrifice on our part. The only real solution to this is to offer to take Chinese untouchables currently being purged into the US as exiles and then offer incentives to Chinese elite to get them to agree to this. At which point the US would be sacrificing significant resources to import hundreds of thousands pissed off, destitute, Tibetan Muslims. Political will for such a solution is nil. Similar to the Nazi holocaust actually...
  - RugnirViking 7y ago
    Really I would say any diploatic feud or human rights abuses that we'd rather wasn't happening with another country that can't be solved with negotiation
    - foxyv 7y ago
      What you are asking for is a method to FORCE a country to change its core beliefs in order to stop them from engaging in what we objectively perceive as evil on their part. The only short term (less than a century) and effective method is military force. It is nearly impossible to change someone's core beliefs. There is a saying that progress comes one funeral at a time. To make progress go faster the solution is a LOT of funerals. China subscribes to this philosophy and is engaging in such a solution. The question is, do we really want to be pulled into that madness? We can disengage from them economically but would that be a good idea? The reason why we've invested so much in economic relations with China is to ensure that we don't HAVE to go to war with them. Our economic interdependence allows us to have some leverage to slow down China from engaging in Manifest Destiny style conquering of Korea, Japan, and most of the south pacific. The long term solution is to change their culture by injecting our own into their younger generations and waiting for them to replace their ossified elders. Right now we're doing a pretty good job of that but China is fighting back pretty hard.

RugnirViking 7y ago

What, historically, has worked reliably? Invasion? Sanctions are about the best tool that exists as far as I can see. There are some things to do with targeting money held overseas, or espionage, but i'm sure those options are already in full force by the time sanctions roll around.

ozmodiar 7y ago
It's pretty new, so not historical, but I'm interested to see how the Magnitsky Act could be applied in situations like this. It targets the wealthy ruling classes by seizing the assets they keep abroad. I'm not sure if it would be more effective, but at least the pain is felt by those in charge and not the general populace.
duelingjello 7y ago
Sanctions don't affect the leadership, they starve the people. Palestine, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, North Korea and many others... admit the truth: it's. hardly-ever. works. It only "feels" like a solution, but it's purely an idealistic panacea based on diffuse, passive-aggressive, starvation-causing harm. The problem and solution comes by first asking "what's worked and at what cost?" Monroe doctrine has been the over-arching ideology: US corporate interests > everyone else's. That's the problem: trying to control other countries and steal their resources, rather than dealing with other countries as equals by mutual-respect of sovereignties. ---- "Successes" (but failures in diplomatic and popularity terms) ---- - invasion (see: Smedley Butler's War is a Racket ) - genocide - death squads trained by SoA - arms trafficking in exchange for cocaine - illegally sending arms to right-wing death squads - CIA-backed coups, overt and covert ---- Failed ---- - US plutocrats' media-fought coup attempt recently Venezuela
foxyv 7y ago
A solution to what exactly? There are so many layers of politics to unravel in China it boggles the mind. Do you target the ruling class? Communist philosophy? Xenophobia? Each has a distinct solution that is extremely hard to execute and takes immense effort and economic dedication over decades or centuries. Hence the urge to advocate for short term "doing something" solutions that have no effect and require no sacrifice on our part. The only real solution to this is to offer to take Chinese untouchables currently being purged into the US as exiles and then offer incentives to Chinese elite to get them to agree to this. At which point the US would be sacrificing significant resources to import hundreds of thousands pissed off, destitute, Tibetan Muslims. Political will for such a solution is nil. Similar to the Nazi holocaust actually...
- RugnirViking 7y ago
  Really I would say any diploatic feud or human rights abuses that we'd rather wasn't happening with another country that can't be solved with negotiation
  - foxyv 7y ago
    What you are asking for is a method to FORCE a country to change its core beliefs in order to stop them from engaging in what we objectively perceive as evil on their part. The only short term (less than a century) and effective method is military force. It is nearly impossible to change someone's core beliefs. There is a saying that progress comes one funeral at a time. To make progress go faster the solution is a LOT of funerals. China subscribes to this philosophy and is engaging in such a solution. The question is, do we really want to be pulled into that madness? We can disengage from them economically but would that be a good idea? The reason why we've invested so much in economic relations with China is to ensure that we don't HAVE to go to war with them. Our economic interdependence allows us to have some leverage to slow down China from engaging in Manifest Destiny style conquering of Korea, Japan, and most of the south pacific. The long term solution is to change their culture by injecting our own into their younger generations and waiting for them to replace their ossified elders. Right now we're doing a pretty good job of that but China is fighting back pretty hard.