6 ms·

What's to stop a mutation from making bacteria copper-immune?

by umvi 7y ago

Tomte 7y ago
"The ions prevent cell respiration, punch holes in the bacterial cell membrane or disrupt the viral coat, and destroy the DNA and RNA inside. This latter property is important as it means that no mutation can occur – preventing the microbe from developing resistance to copper."
- chiefalchemist 7y ago
  I don't follow your reasoning. If the membrane or viral coat aren't compromised then the contents remain safe. And that DNA will carry forward.
- sillysaurusx 7y ago
  Wait, is it really possible to say “nature can’t do this”? I mean, think about the entire history of medicine, and science in general: how many times have we underestimated nature? Can we actually claim that nature can’t, under any conditions, evolve copper resistance? I am a layman when it comes to biology, so I have no idea. But I’ve seen enough handwavey results in other fields where alarms are going off when I read that. Perhaps the skepticism is unjustified though.
  - krastanov 7y ago
    It is not inconceivable, but it is orders of magnitude more difficult.
  - Retric 7y ago
    On the other hand sunlight has been killing bacteria for ~4 billion years and their still vulnerable. So can’t might be a poor word choice, but biology does have hard limits it needs to deal with.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - thatcat 7y ago
      Cyanobacteria evolved to use the sunlight as energy, but that doesn't imply that other species could easily evolve that ability.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  Yeah, that makes no sense. Resistance doesn't happen because the anti bacterial agent provokes mutations. The process is that mutations happen all the time, and those that result in slightly higher survival rates over time dominates the population.
  - hnick 7y ago
    Yes a lot of replies in this topic sound like Lamarckism. The mutation is a pre-existing condition that is selected for when everyone else dies or has a bad day, and you can now fill the empty space.
pizza234 7y ago
Answer in the article: > [...] copper and its alloys exhibit these impressive properties and the processes involved. The process involves the release of copper ions (electrically charged particles) when microbes, transferred by touching, sneezing or vomiting, land on the copper surface. The ions prevent cell respiration, punch holes in the bacterial cell membrane or disrupt the viral coat, and destroy the DNA and RNA inside. > This latter property is important as it means that no mutation can occur – preventing the microbe from developing resistance to copper.
- zer00eyz 7y ago
  Wait, that doesn't make sense to me. I always understood that the mutation happened at copy time/mitosis.
  - function_seven 7y ago
    Yeah, I think that article has a misunderstanding of how evolution works. Copper may well be impossible to develop a resistance against, but it’s not due to the mechanism above. All anti-microbials also destroy their enemy cells, but for some, it’s possible for a random mutation in the population to provide resistance to the antiseptic. So the question is: is copper like alcohol and fire? Or is it like antibiotics and other more “nuanced” antiseptics?
    - amluto 7y ago
      Even alcohol resistance is common in some species: people regularly breed brewer’s yeast to tolerate high alcohol concentrations so that we can brew high-ABV beer. Fortunately there seem to be few or no pathogens that can tolerate much alcohol. Similarly, if plants can evolve to tolerate extreme salt concentrations, it should be possible for bacteria to evolve copper resistance.
      - galangalalgol 7y ago
        Yeast can handle mid 25% ish at th high end. There are pathogens that 60% whiskey won't kill. The sanitization beer or wine accomplishes is really more of a water test. If the sugar containing solution looks and smells like beer when you open the cask nothing bad was in there.
IAmEveryone 7y ago
The basic principle is that hand sanitizers are applied externally. They can be far more agressive than, say, antibiotics because they do not enter the body (or only in minimal quantities). The skin is a specialized, multi-layered protective structure that single-celled organisms just cannot replicate within their constraints (ability to absorb food, energy investment, etc). It's not quite good enough to allow the sort of methods completely immune against evolved resistance (fire, sufficient radiation, etc.). But it's far enough ahead to make it manageable. So I wouldn't worry too much. The worst outcome is likely to be hand-washing becoming a somewhat larger nuisance, a higher risk of skin irritation or some combination therefore. The whole procedure is probably ripe for some purely mechanical innovation such as high(ish) pressure water or air, considering that part hasn't much changed in the last 200 years (although training and frequency have increased)
- smileysteve 7y ago
  > a higher risk of skin irritation Skin irration is a form of abrasion, which allow bacteria to both hide and feed. Potentially creating a bigger problem.
gh5reaqhbeaq 7y ago
Here is an answer that implies bacteria are evolving copper immunity: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316130951.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316130951.h...
notfromhere 7y ago
It's kind of like for humans to evolve immunity to sledgehammers
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  There's no real obstacle to that. Plenty of animals will laugh off a sledgehammer blow. We (today) might have reservations about calling the new humans "humans", though.

What's to stop a mutation from making bacteria copper-immune?

by umvi 7y ago

What's to stop a mutation from making bacteria copper-immune?

"The ions prevent cell respiration, punch holes in the bacterial cell membrane or disrupt the viral coat, and destroy the DNA and RNA inside. This latter property is important as it means that no mutation can occur – preventing the microbe from developing resistance to copper."

chiefalchemist 7y ago
I don't follow your reasoning. If the membrane or viral coat aren't compromised then the contents remain safe. And that DNA will carry forward.
sillysaurusx 7y ago
Wait, is it really possible to say “nature can’t do this”? I mean, think about the entire history of medicine, and science in general: how many times have we underestimated nature? Can we actually claim that nature can’t, under any conditions, evolve copper resistance? I am a layman when it comes to biology, so I have no idea. But I’ve seen enough handwavey results in other fields where alarms are going off when I read that. Perhaps the skepticism is unjustified though.
- krastanov 7y ago
  It is not inconceivable, but it is orders of magnitude more difficult.
- Retric 7y ago
  On the other hand sunlight has been killing bacteria for ~4 billion years and their still vulnerable. So can’t might be a poor word choice, but biology does have hard limits it needs to deal with.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - thatcat 7y ago
    Cyanobacteria evolved to use the sunlight as energy, but that doesn't imply that other species could easily evolve that ability.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
BurningFrog 7y ago
Yeah, that makes no sense. Resistance doesn't happen because the anti bacterial agent provokes mutations. The process is that mutations happen all the time, and those that result in slightly higher survival rates over time dominates the population.
- hnick 7y ago
  Yes a lot of replies in this topic sound like Lamarckism. The mutation is a pre-existing condition that is selected for when everyone else dies or has a bad day, and you can now fill the empty space.

pizza234 7y ago

Answer in the article: > [...] copper and its alloys exhibit these impressive properties and the processes involved. The process involves the release of copper ions (electrically charged particles) when microbes, transferred by touching, sneezing or vomiting, land on the copper surface. The ions prevent cell respiration, punch holes in the bacterial cell membrane or disrupt the viral coat, and destroy the DNA and RNA inside. > This latter property is important as it means that no mutation can occur – preventing the microbe from developing resistance to copper.

zer00eyz 7y ago
Wait, that doesn't make sense to me. I always understood that the mutation happened at copy time/mitosis.
- function_seven 7y ago
  Yeah, I think that article has a misunderstanding of how evolution works. Copper may well be impossible to develop a resistance against, but it’s not due to the mechanism above. All anti-microbials also destroy their enemy cells, but for some, it’s possible for a random mutation in the population to provide resistance to the antiseptic. So the question is: is copper like alcohol and fire? Or is it like antibiotics and other more “nuanced” antiseptics?
  - amluto 7y ago
    Even alcohol resistance is common in some species: people regularly breed brewer’s yeast to tolerate high alcohol concentrations so that we can brew high-ABV beer. Fortunately there seem to be few or no pathogens that can tolerate much alcohol. Similarly, if plants can evolve to tolerate extreme salt concentrations, it should be possible for bacteria to evolve copper resistance.
    - galangalalgol 7y ago
      Yeast can handle mid 25% ish at th high end. There are pathogens that 60% whiskey won't kill. The sanitization beer or wine accomplishes is really more of a water test. If the sugar containing solution looks and smells like beer when you open the cask nothing bad was in there.

IAmEveryone 7y ago

The basic principle is that hand sanitizers are applied externally. They can be far more agressive than, say, antibiotics because they do not enter the body (or only in minimal quantities). The skin is a specialized, multi-layered protective structure that single-celled organisms just cannot replicate within their constraints (ability to absorb food, energy investment, etc). It's not quite good enough to allow the sort of methods completely immune against evolved resistance (fire, sufficient radiation, etc.). But it's far enough ahead to make it manageable. So I wouldn't worry too much. The worst outcome is likely to be hand-washing becoming a somewhat larger nuisance, a higher risk of skin irritation or some combination therefore. The whole procedure is probably ripe for some purely mechanical innovation such as high(ish) pressure water or air, considering that part hasn't much changed in the last 200 years (although training and frequency have increased)

smileysteve 7y ago
> a higher risk of skin irritation Skin irration is a form of abrasion, which allow bacteria to both hide and feed. Potentially creating a bigger problem.

gh5reaqhbeaq 7y ago

Here is an answer that implies bacteria are evolving copper immunity: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316130951.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316130951.h...

notfromhere 7y ago

It's kind of like for humans to evolve immunity to sledgehammers

thaumasiotes 7y ago
There's no real obstacle to that. Plenty of animals will laugh off a sledgehammer blow. We (today) might have reservations about calling the new humans "humans", though.