9 ms·

We’ve known how to combat this for a while: http://theconversation.com/copper-is-great-at-killing-superbugs-so-why-dont-hospitals-use-it-73103 http://theconvers

We’ve known how to combat this for a while: http://theconversation.com/copper-is-great-at-killing-superbugs-so-why-dont-hospitals-use-it-73103 http://theconversation.com/copper-is-great-at-killing-superb... Copper on the surface of hospital furniture should help a lot.

umvi 7y ago
What's to stop a mutation from making bacteria copper-immune?
- Tomte 7y ago
  "The ions prevent cell respiration, punch holes in the bacterial cell membrane or disrupt the viral coat, and destroy the DNA and RNA inside. This latter property is important as it means that no mutation can occur – preventing the microbe from developing resistance to copper."
  - chiefalchemist 7y ago
    I don't follow your reasoning. If the membrane or viral coat aren't compromised then the contents remain safe. And that DNA will carry forward.
  - sillysaurusx 7y ago
    Wait, is it really possible to say “nature can’t do this”? I mean, think about the entire history of medicine, and science in general: how many times have we underestimated nature? Can we actually claim that nature can’t, under any conditions, evolve copper resistance? I am a layman when it comes to biology, so I have no idea. But I’ve seen enough handwavey results in other fields where alarms are going off when I read that. Perhaps the skepticism is unjustified though.
    - krastanov 7y ago
      It is not inconceivable, but it is orders of magnitude more difficult.
    - Retric 7y ago
      On the other hand sunlight has been killing bacteria for ~4 billion years and their still vulnerable. So can’t might be a poor word choice, but biology does have hard limits it needs to deal with.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - thatcat 7y ago
        Cyanobacteria evolved to use the sunlight as energy, but that doesn't imply that other species could easily evolve that ability.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    Yeah, that makes no sense. Resistance doesn't happen because the anti bacterial agent provokes mutations. The process is that mutations happen all the time, and those that result in slightly higher survival rates over time dominates the population.
    - hnick 7y ago
      Yes a lot of replies in this topic sound like Lamarckism. The mutation is a pre-existing condition that is selected for when everyone else dies or has a bad day, and you can now fill the empty space.
- pizza234 7y ago
  Answer in the article: > [...] copper and its alloys exhibit these impressive properties and the processes involved. The process involves the release of copper ions (electrically charged particles) when microbes, transferred by touching, sneezing or vomiting, land on the copper surface. The ions prevent cell respiration, punch holes in the bacterial cell membrane or disrupt the viral coat, and destroy the DNA and RNA inside. > This latter property is important as it means that no mutation can occur – preventing the microbe from developing resistance to copper.
  - zer00eyz 7y ago
    Wait, that doesn't make sense to me. I always understood that the mutation happened at copy time/mitosis.
    - function_seven 7y ago
      Yeah, I think that article has a misunderstanding of how evolution works. Copper may well be impossible to develop a resistance against, but it’s not due to the mechanism above. All anti-microbials also destroy their enemy cells, but for some, it’s possible for a random mutation in the population to provide resistance to the antiseptic. So the question is: is copper like alcohol and fire? Or is it like antibiotics and other more “nuanced” antiseptics?
      - amluto 7y ago
        Even alcohol resistance is common in some species: people regularly breed brewer’s yeast to tolerate high alcohol concentrations so that we can brew high-ABV beer. Fortunately there seem to be few or no pathogens that can tolerate much alcohol. Similarly, if plants can evolve to tolerate extreme salt concentrations, it should be possible for bacteria to evolve copper resistance.
        galangalalgol 7y ago
        Yeast can handle mid 25% ish at th high end. There are pathogens that 60% whiskey won't kill. The sanitization beer or wine accomplishes is really more of a water test. If the sugar containing solution looks and smells like beer when you open the cask nothing bad was in there.
- IAmEveryone 7y ago
  The basic principle is that hand sanitizers are applied externally. They can be far more agressive than, say, antibiotics because they do not enter the body (or only in minimal quantities). The skin is a specialized, multi-layered protective structure that single-celled organisms just cannot replicate within their constraints (ability to absorb food, energy investment, etc). It's not quite good enough to allow the sort of methods completely immune against evolved resistance (fire, sufficient radiation, etc.). But it's far enough ahead to make it manageable. So I wouldn't worry too much. The worst outcome is likely to be hand-washing becoming a somewhat larger nuisance, a higher risk of skin irritation or some combination therefore. The whole procedure is probably ripe for some purely mechanical innovation such as high(ish) pressure water or air, considering that part hasn't much changed in the last 200 years (although training and frequency have increased)
  - smileysteve 7y ago
    > a higher risk of skin irritation Skin irration is a form of abrasion, which allow bacteria to both hide and feed. Potentially creating a bigger problem.
- gh5reaqhbeaq 7y ago
  Here is an answer that implies bacteria are evolving copper immunity: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316130951.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316130951.h...
- notfromhere 7y ago
  It's kind of like for humans to evolve immunity to sledgehammers
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    There's no real obstacle to that. Plenty of animals will laugh off a sledgehammer blow. We (today) might have reservations about calling the new humans "humans", though.
npo9 7y ago
At first I thought “Isn’t copper really rare, surely there isn’t enough copper to plate all of the door knobs and other surfaces of the worlds hospitals.” As it turns out we’ve only mined 12% of known copper reserves and once mined copper stays in circulation almost indefinitely because of it’s very high recycle rate. Can we extract this wealth of materials cost effectively while respecting the ecosystems adjacent to them? What would a high-tech mine look like?
- stopads 7y ago
  Open pit copper mines are one of the most horrible environmental extractions imaginable. I grew up next to one, it was pretty unpleasant. Not quite as nasty as uranium mining, but it's getting up there.
- code_duck 7y ago
  Copper is about $2.75 a pound currently. That's about 300% the price of aluminum and .3% the price of platinum.
  - BoiledCabbage 7y ago
    And compare that 1 time cost, to the cost of all the practices, drugs, procedures they have the continuously perform to combat anti-biotic resistant bacteria? $2.75 is what, equal to maybe 2 mins of the average doctor's hourly salary?
    - tbihl 7y ago
      Certainly not. Maybe a GP in a lower-paid practice, but NPs and PAs regularly make $60/hr ($1/min) across increasingly many specialties, to say nothing of MDs
bransonf 7y ago
Similar to this, using “Shark Skin” surfaces has been found to have a lot of potential as well. https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/pressroom/presspacs/2018/acs-presspac-june-13-2018/attacking-bacteria-with-shark-skin-inspired-surfaces.html https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/pressroom/presspacs/2018/...
mlinksva 7y ago
I did not know about this, thanks for the pointer. Tons more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_copper-alloy_touch_surfaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_copper-alloy_tou... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_co... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect
flycaliguy 7y ago
Sadly I'm almost certain that, at least in my town, everything copper would go missing in no time.

umvi 7y ago

What's to stop a mutation from making bacteria copper-immune?

Tomte 7y ago
"The ions prevent cell respiration, punch holes in the bacterial cell membrane or disrupt the viral coat, and destroy the DNA and RNA inside. This latter property is important as it means that no mutation can occur – preventing the microbe from developing resistance to copper."
- chiefalchemist 7y ago
  I don't follow your reasoning. If the membrane or viral coat aren't compromised then the contents remain safe. And that DNA will carry forward.
- sillysaurusx 7y ago
  Wait, is it really possible to say “nature can’t do this”? I mean, think about the entire history of medicine, and science in general: how many times have we underestimated nature? Can we actually claim that nature can’t, under any conditions, evolve copper resistance? I am a layman when it comes to biology, so I have no idea. But I’ve seen enough handwavey results in other fields where alarms are going off when I read that. Perhaps the skepticism is unjustified though.
  - krastanov 7y ago
    It is not inconceivable, but it is orders of magnitude more difficult.
  - Retric 7y ago
    On the other hand sunlight has been killing bacteria for ~4 billion years and their still vulnerable. So can’t might be a poor word choice, but biology does have hard limits it needs to deal with.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - thatcat 7y ago
      Cyanobacteria evolved to use the sunlight as energy, but that doesn't imply that other species could easily evolve that ability.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  Yeah, that makes no sense. Resistance doesn't happen because the anti bacterial agent provokes mutations. The process is that mutations happen all the time, and those that result in slightly higher survival rates over time dominates the population.
  - hnick 7y ago
    Yes a lot of replies in this topic sound like Lamarckism. The mutation is a pre-existing condition that is selected for when everyone else dies or has a bad day, and you can now fill the empty space.
pizza234 7y ago
Answer in the article: > [...] copper and its alloys exhibit these impressive properties and the processes involved. The process involves the release of copper ions (electrically charged particles) when microbes, transferred by touching, sneezing or vomiting, land on the copper surface. The ions prevent cell respiration, punch holes in the bacterial cell membrane or disrupt the viral coat, and destroy the DNA and RNA inside. > This latter property is important as it means that no mutation can occur – preventing the microbe from developing resistance to copper.
- zer00eyz 7y ago
  Wait, that doesn't make sense to me. I always understood that the mutation happened at copy time/mitosis.
  - function_seven 7y ago
    Yeah, I think that article has a misunderstanding of how evolution works. Copper may well be impossible to develop a resistance against, but it’s not due to the mechanism above. All anti-microbials also destroy their enemy cells, but for some, it’s possible for a random mutation in the population to provide resistance to the antiseptic. So the question is: is copper like alcohol and fire? Or is it like antibiotics and other more “nuanced” antiseptics?
    - amluto 7y ago
      Even alcohol resistance is common in some species: people regularly breed brewer’s yeast to tolerate high alcohol concentrations so that we can brew high-ABV beer. Fortunately there seem to be few or no pathogens that can tolerate much alcohol. Similarly, if plants can evolve to tolerate extreme salt concentrations, it should be possible for bacteria to evolve copper resistance.
      - galangalalgol 7y ago
        Yeast can handle mid 25% ish at th high end. There are pathogens that 60% whiskey won't kill. The sanitization beer or wine accomplishes is really more of a water test. If the sugar containing solution looks and smells like beer when you open the cask nothing bad was in there.
IAmEveryone 7y ago
The basic principle is that hand sanitizers are applied externally. They can be far more agressive than, say, antibiotics because they do not enter the body (or only in minimal quantities). The skin is a specialized, multi-layered protective structure that single-celled organisms just cannot replicate within their constraints (ability to absorb food, energy investment, etc). It's not quite good enough to allow the sort of methods completely immune against evolved resistance (fire, sufficient radiation, etc.). But it's far enough ahead to make it manageable. So I wouldn't worry too much. The worst outcome is likely to be hand-washing becoming a somewhat larger nuisance, a higher risk of skin irritation or some combination therefore. The whole procedure is probably ripe for some purely mechanical innovation such as high(ish) pressure water or air, considering that part hasn't much changed in the last 200 years (although training and frequency have increased)
- smileysteve 7y ago
  > a higher risk of skin irritation Skin irration is a form of abrasion, which allow bacteria to both hide and feed. Potentially creating a bigger problem.
gh5reaqhbeaq 7y ago
Here is an answer that implies bacteria are evolving copper immunity: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316130951.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316130951.h...
notfromhere 7y ago
It's kind of like for humans to evolve immunity to sledgehammers
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  There's no real obstacle to that. Plenty of animals will laugh off a sledgehammer blow. We (today) might have reservations about calling the new humans "humans", though.

npo9 7y ago

At first I thought “Isn’t copper really rare, surely there isn’t enough copper to plate all of the door knobs and other surfaces of the worlds hospitals.” As it turns out we’ve only mined 12% of known copper reserves and once mined copper stays in circulation almost indefinitely because of it’s very high recycle rate. Can we extract this wealth of materials cost effectively while respecting the ecosystems adjacent to them? What would a high-tech mine look like?

stopads 7y ago
Open pit copper mines are one of the most horrible environmental extractions imaginable. I grew up next to one, it was pretty unpleasant. Not quite as nasty as uranium mining, but it's getting up there.
code_duck 7y ago
Copper is about $2.75 a pound currently. That's about 300% the price of aluminum and .3% the price of platinum.
- BoiledCabbage 7y ago
  And compare that 1 time cost, to the cost of all the practices, drugs, procedures they have the continuously perform to combat anti-biotic resistant bacteria? $2.75 is what, equal to maybe 2 mins of the average doctor's hourly salary?
  - tbihl 7y ago
    Certainly not. Maybe a GP in a lower-paid practice, but NPs and PAs regularly make $60/hr ($1/min) across increasingly many specialties, to say nothing of MDs

bransonf 7y ago

Similar to this, using “Shark Skin” surfaces has been found to have a lot of potential as well. https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/pressroom/presspacs/2018/acs-presspac-june-13-2018/attacking-bacteria-with-shark-skin-inspired-surfaces.html https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/pressroom/presspacs/2018/...

mlinksva 7y ago

I did not know about this, thanks for the pointer. Tons more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_copper-alloy_touch_surfaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_copper-alloy_tou... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_co... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect

flycaliguy 7y ago

Sadly I'm almost certain that, at least in my town, everything copper would go missing in no time.