8 ms·

Also do not forget that SpaceX is not the only company that wants to launch low orbit satelites. I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution o

Also do not forget that SpaceX is not the only company that wants to launch low orbit satelites. I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution other then to move telescopes to space.

Tomte 7y ago
Sure there is another solution: we ban them, or at least highly regulate them. The idea that private companies can just do whatever, and there's nothing we can do is just so cliché HN.
- quantdev 7y ago
  The idea that the ascent of humanity into the stars and the potentially incredible understanding of the universe we could gain would be stopped by 2019 regulations because amateur astronomers are short-sighted is just so cliche HN.
  - Tomte 7y ago
    Well, the professional astronomers using large telescopes on Earth are the ones deepening our understanding of the universe. Not the greedy entrepreneurs littering the sky with Internet access satellites.
    - SEJeff 7y ago
      I think you mean, "The greedy engineers that want to use said satellites to pay for a Manned Mars mission and make us a multi-planetary species."
      - Tomte 7y ago
        Funny, the officially stated purpose is "Internet access". There is some handwaving towards "maybe it could do more".
        SEJeff 7y ago
        Musk has been excessively clear the goal of Starlink is to allow SpaceX to self-fund a manned mars mission. You're welcome to downvote all you want, but this does not negate the fact Musk has directly said this (in several interviews). Many people tend to agree with him on this possibility: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/15/musk-on-starlink-internet-satellites-spacex-has-sufficient-capital.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/15/musk-on-starlink-internet-sa... https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-internet-satellites-mars-colonization.html https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-internet-satellites-ma...
        Tomte 7y ago
        So the ends justify the means? Great, why doesn't Musk trade in Ivory? There's a tidy profit to be had. Maybe he can donate a couple dollars to PETA, and everything's fine.
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban... > On July 6, 2016, a near-total ban on commercial trade in African elephant ivory went into effect in the United States. Hard to make a profit when you're shut down by the government.
        SEJeff 7y ago
        He’s just trying to build up a strawman to attack. Typical HN troll.
        dang 7y ago
        Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN, and please especially don't do personal attacks. We ban accounts that do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - chr1 7y ago
      Professional astronomers would rather use a swarm of large and better working telescopes in space instead of dealing with clouds, city lights, and the Sun not allowing to work at normal hours. > Not the greedy entrepreneurs littering the sky with Internet access satellites. The "littering" will be done not just by "greedy entrepreneurs" but by millions of people who will pay for faster internet, and by astronomers who want better telescopes.
      - Tomte 7y ago
        > Professional astronomers would rather use a swarm of large and better working telescopes in space Sure. How many telescopes do those StarLink satellites have? None, right.
        chr1 7y ago
        They do not need to be part of StarLink. The more satellites are launched the more money SpaceX gets to develop starship, starship reduces the cost of launching satellites and increases the maximum volume of the satellite, with cheaper launches and cheaper mirrors that do not need complex folding launching space telescope becomes cheaper than building a telescope on the earth, which means that new telescopes will be built for space.
        Tomte 7y ago
        The same line of reasoning works for selling weapons to conflict parties.
        chr1 7y ago
        How does it work? By building rockets spacex learns how to build better rockets, by selling weapons it would only learn how to build weapons. If you mean someone could start another company selling weapons and redirect all profits to SpaceX, that could work, but why would anyone do that if there is a better way of selling network connection?
      - chr1 7y ago
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      SpaceX is launching some of those telescopes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transiting_Exoplanet_Survey_Satellite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transiting_Exoplanet_Survey_Sa...
      - Tomte 7y ago
        And in order to launch it they are using their constellation how exactly? Ah yes, they don't. They are separate.
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        It was launched on a SpaceX rocket by those "greedy entrepreneurs", at a cost that likely permitted the professional astronomers to save a bunch of money versus launching with a competitor like ULA.
- lacker 7y ago
  I am a big fan of astronomy, but satellites are doing a lot more for humanity than ground-based astronomy.
  - Tomte 7y ago
    What does an Internet access satellite network do for science? Those scientific uses SpaceX talks about are speculative and clearly secondary (or tertiary behind military use). By contrast, earth-based telescopes are doing lots and lots of science right now.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      > What does an Internet access satellite network do for science? One example: https://www.usap.gov/technology/1935/ https://www.usap.gov/technology/1935/ > Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station uses communications satellites that serve as relay stations, receiving radio signals from one location and transmitting them to another. The United States Antarctic Program utilizes the satellites for the transfer of South Pole science, operational, and weather data, as well as Internet, telephone, and email services.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  Nobody has jurisdiction over space. We can try to create an international agency and get all space fairing nations to submit to its regulations and rulings, but even if that was politically viable it would take years. Meanwhile Starlink will be deployed mid 2020 if no major delays happen
  - Tomte 7y ago
    Great, so any of the hundred-something countries on earth are free to destroy those satellites? ;-)
    - sprash 7y ago
      I was thinking about what would be the easiest way to destroy those satellites. A highly collimated microwave beam could do the trick. Or may be a really high powered Argon Ion Laser which are rather easy to build. Maybe somebody can come up with a neat DIY solution.
    - wongarsu 7y ago
      Generally destroying other people's property isn't looked kindly upon, even if done in international waters or in space.
- dang 7y ago
  You broke the site guidelines badly with this flamebait and generic tangent, which predictably started a wretched flamewar. Then you perpetuated it. You do a lot of good for HN with your interesting submissions, but you've also been vandalizing HN with destructive comments for years. We've asked you not to do this many times. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18887148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18887148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17952388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17952388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17441941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17441941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17432633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17432633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17113849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17113849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14693327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14693327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11705439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11705439 Eventually the cost outweighs the benefit. I definitely do not want to ban you, so would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this? All users here need to have self-control, and experienced contributors more so.
  - kbrwn 7y ago
    How is this comment flamebait? First time that I have really thought you missed the boat. Please don't censor people just because they criticize HN or the community.
    - dang 7y ago
      "The idea that private companies can just do whatever" distorted the other comment into something ideologically inflammatory (which the site guidelines explicitly ask not to do), and took the thread on a generic ideological tangent. Those routinely turn into flamewars. Posting something that predictably induces a flamewar is flamebait.
    - skinkestek 7y ago
      I was also surprised but then I read up on the rest of The comments from that account in this thread as well and think that it something like that might be justified. I also read the rest of the comments linked as examples and some of them where obvious to me and some were not. I'm not a native speaker though and I realize dang has a huge advantage there as well as access to see detailed voting statistics to see what riles people up.
wongarsu 7y ago
With James Web having an decently sized mirror on a space telescope that's not as ridiculous as it once was. Still we should search for cheaper solutions first. https://www.eso.org/public/usa/images/eso1617z/?lang https://www.eso.org/public/usa/images/eso1617z/?lang
- mcbutterbunz 7y ago
  JWST still hasnt launched after all these years. Building space based telescopes that will last years without maintenance is hard.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  For some added context, JWST costs about 10x more than the most expensive terrestrial telescope ever built.
sprash 7y ago
> I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution The solution is not to fill up our precious LEO with space trash. If you want faster Internet lay some fiber. It's probably even less expensive to lay some fiber across the whole jungle than Musks megalomaniac fantasies. As hobby radio astronomer this whole story fills me with rage.
- jesseb 7y ago
  Not every country has the resources or desire to lay nation-wide fiber. Satellite internet could beneift millions of people who don't have access to reliable high-speed connections.
  - sprash 7y ago
    Sorry but I don't really care. Laying fiber is a dead simple procedure that is rather inexpensive. The main reason it doesn't happen are political reasons. Other countries are responsible to solve their political problems themselves. I have neither any influence, ability or responsibility for the political process in other countries (which is certainly a good thing). Former poor soviet block countries built their own internet literally with their bare hands in the 90s despite being rather poor. So it is not a matter of wealth. Littering LEO means disrupting the currently most fruitful branch of physics. Particle physics with accelerators is in a crisis right now and the best way to learn about the Universe is astronomy. What Musk does is a crime against humanity.
    - chr1 7y ago
      First starlink is better than fiber because it will have lower latency. Second and more important it doesn't destroy astronomy at all, it adds some small temporary inconvenience for some types of observations, but at the same time makes space launches cheaper allowing more space telescopes, which is going to help astronomy greatly. Your reaction would be totally justified if starlink was really disrupting astronomy, but it is simply not true.
      - 7y ago

Also do not forget that SpaceX is not the only company that wants to launch low orbit satelites. I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution other then to move telescopes to space.

Tomte 7y ago

Sure there is another solution: we ban them, or at least highly regulate them. The idea that private companies can just do whatever, and there's nothing we can do is just so cliché HN.

quantdev 7y ago
The idea that the ascent of humanity into the stars and the potentially incredible understanding of the universe we could gain would be stopped by 2019 regulations because amateur astronomers are short-sighted is just so cliche HN.
- Tomte 7y ago
  Well, the professional astronomers using large telescopes on Earth are the ones deepening our understanding of the universe. Not the greedy entrepreneurs littering the sky with Internet access satellites.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    I think you mean, "The greedy engineers that want to use said satellites to pay for a Manned Mars mission and make us a multi-planetary species."
    - Tomte 7y ago
      Funny, the officially stated purpose is "Internet access". There is some handwaving towards "maybe it could do more".
      - SEJeff 7y ago
        Musk has been excessively clear the goal of Starlink is to allow SpaceX to self-fund a manned mars mission. You're welcome to downvote all you want, but this does not negate the fact Musk has directly said this (in several interviews). Many people tend to agree with him on this possibility: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/15/musk-on-starlink-internet-satellites-spacex-has-sufficient-capital.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/15/musk-on-starlink-internet-sa... https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-internet-satellites-mars-colonization.html https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-internet-satellites-ma...
        Tomte 7y ago
        So the ends justify the means? Great, why doesn't Musk trade in Ivory? There's a tidy profit to be had. Maybe he can donate a couple dollars to PETA, and everything's fine.
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban... > On July 6, 2016, a near-total ban on commercial trade in African elephant ivory went into effect in the United States. Hard to make a profit when you're shut down by the government.
        SEJeff 7y ago
        He’s just trying to build up a strawman to attack. Typical HN troll.
        dang 7y ago
        Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN, and please especially don't do personal attacks. We ban accounts that do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - chr1 7y ago
    Professional astronomers would rather use a swarm of large and better working telescopes in space instead of dealing with clouds, city lights, and the Sun not allowing to work at normal hours. > Not the greedy entrepreneurs littering the sky with Internet access satellites. The "littering" will be done not just by "greedy entrepreneurs" but by millions of people who will pay for faster internet, and by astronomers who want better telescopes.
    - Tomte 7y ago
      > Professional astronomers would rather use a swarm of large and better working telescopes in space Sure. How many telescopes do those StarLink satellites have? None, right.
      - chr1 7y ago
        They do not need to be part of StarLink. The more satellites are launched the more money SpaceX gets to develop starship, starship reduces the cost of launching satellites and increases the maximum volume of the satellite, with cheaper launches and cheaper mirrors that do not need complex folding launching space telescope becomes cheaper than building a telescope on the earth, which means that new telescopes will be built for space.
        Tomte 7y ago
        The same line of reasoning works for selling weapons to conflict parties.
        chr1 7y ago
        How does it work? By building rockets spacex learns how to build better rockets, by selling weapons it would only learn how to build weapons. If you mean someone could start another company selling weapons and redirect all profits to SpaceX, that could work, but why would anyone do that if there is a better way of selling network connection?
    - chr1 7y ago
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    SpaceX is launching some of those telescopes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transiting_Exoplanet_Survey_Satellite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transiting_Exoplanet_Survey_Sa...
    - Tomte 7y ago
      And in order to launch it they are using their constellation how exactly? Ah yes, they don't. They are separate.
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        It was launched on a SpaceX rocket by those "greedy entrepreneurs", at a cost that likely permitted the professional astronomers to save a bunch of money versus launching with a competitor like ULA.
lacker 7y ago
I am a big fan of astronomy, but satellites are doing a lot more for humanity than ground-based astronomy.
- Tomte 7y ago
  What does an Internet access satellite network do for science? Those scientific uses SpaceX talks about are speculative and clearly secondary (or tertiary behind military use). By contrast, earth-based telescopes are doing lots and lots of science right now.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    > What does an Internet access satellite network do for science? One example: https://www.usap.gov/technology/1935/ https://www.usap.gov/technology/1935/ > Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station uses communications satellites that serve as relay stations, receiving radio signals from one location and transmitting them to another. The United States Antarctic Program utilizes the satellites for the transfer of South Pole science, operational, and weather data, as well as Internet, telephone, and email services.
wongarsu 7y ago
Nobody has jurisdiction over space. We can try to create an international agency and get all space fairing nations to submit to its regulations and rulings, but even if that was politically viable it would take years. Meanwhile Starlink will be deployed mid 2020 if no major delays happen
- Tomte 7y ago
  Great, so any of the hundred-something countries on earth are free to destroy those satellites? ;-)
  - sprash 7y ago
    I was thinking about what would be the easiest way to destroy those satellites. A highly collimated microwave beam could do the trick. Or may be a really high powered Argon Ion Laser which are rather easy to build. Maybe somebody can come up with a neat DIY solution.
  - wongarsu 7y ago
    Generally destroying other people's property isn't looked kindly upon, even if done in international waters or in space.
dang 7y ago
You broke the site guidelines badly with this flamebait and generic tangent, which predictably started a wretched flamewar. Then you perpetuated it. You do a lot of good for HN with your interesting submissions, but you've also been vandalizing HN with destructive comments for years. We've asked you not to do this many times. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18887148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18887148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17952388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17952388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17441941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17441941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17432633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17432633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17113849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17113849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14693327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14693327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11705439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11705439 Eventually the cost outweighs the benefit. I definitely do not want to ban you, so would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this? All users here need to have self-control, and experienced contributors more so.
- kbrwn 7y ago
  How is this comment flamebait? First time that I have really thought you missed the boat. Please don't censor people just because they criticize HN or the community.
  - dang 7y ago
    "The idea that private companies can just do whatever" distorted the other comment into something ideologically inflammatory (which the site guidelines explicitly ask not to do), and took the thread on a generic ideological tangent. Those routinely turn into flamewars. Posting something that predictably induces a flamewar is flamebait.
  - skinkestek 7y ago
    I was also surprised but then I read up on the rest of The comments from that account in this thread as well and think that it something like that might be justified. I also read the rest of the comments linked as examples and some of them where obvious to me and some were not. I'm not a native speaker though and I realize dang has a huge advantage there as well as access to see detailed voting statistics to see what riles people up.

wongarsu 7y ago

With James Web having an decently sized mirror on a space telescope that's not as ridiculous as it once was. Still we should search for cheaper solutions first. https://www.eso.org/public/usa/images/eso1617z/?lang https://www.eso.org/public/usa/images/eso1617z/?lang

mcbutterbunz 7y ago
JWST still hasnt launched after all these years. Building space based telescopes that will last years without maintenance is hard.
Rebelgecko 7y ago
For some added context, JWST costs about 10x more than the most expensive terrestrial telescope ever built.

sprash 7y ago

> I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution The solution is not to fill up our precious LEO with space trash. If you want faster Internet lay some fiber. It's probably even less expensive to lay some fiber across the whole jungle than Musks megalomaniac fantasies. As hobby radio astronomer this whole story fills me with rage.

jesseb 7y ago
Not every country has the resources or desire to lay nation-wide fiber. Satellite internet could beneift millions of people who don't have access to reliable high-speed connections.
- sprash 7y ago
  Sorry but I don't really care. Laying fiber is a dead simple procedure that is rather inexpensive. The main reason it doesn't happen are political reasons. Other countries are responsible to solve their political problems themselves. I have neither any influence, ability or responsibility for the political process in other countries (which is certainly a good thing). Former poor soviet block countries built their own internet literally with their bare hands in the 90s despite being rather poor. So it is not a matter of wealth. Littering LEO means disrupting the currently most fruitful branch of physics. Particle physics with accelerators is in a crisis right now and the best way to learn about the Universe is astronomy. What Musk does is a crime against humanity.
  - chr1 7y ago
    First starlink is better than fiber because it will have lower latency. Second and more important it doesn't destroy astronomy at all, it adds some small temporary inconvenience for some types of observations, but at the same time makes space launches cheaper allowing more space telescopes, which is going to help astronomy greatly. Your reaction would be totally justified if starlink was really disrupting astronomy, but it is simply not true.
    - 7y ago