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Which is the main reason why no usable alternative implementations exist yet and why Rust hasn't found its way to more low-level software projects like the Linu

Which is the main reason why no usable alternative implementations exist yet and why Rust hasn't found its way to more low-level software projects like the Linux plumberland yet. Rust dearly needs a stable specification, it is the main blocker why the language hasn't been more widely adopted.

galangalalgol 7y ago
Rust has LTS like releases based on years, but the last one didnt have async await so everyone just kept tracking. I think the nexts LTS type release may snag some people and slow stuff down. Cargo should handle that fine, but not sure about maintainers. I cant get cargo in my day job, just the rustc 1.3x shipped with rhel, so I'm already standing still. Rhel's version migh make a good defacto lts in the absence of cargo, but the thin std lib makes that hard, and random old rustc versions sometimes don't play nice with every crate.
- pietroalbini 7y ago
  Rust doesn't have LTS releases. Editions are both a way to market the new features introduced in the past years as a "bundle" to outside users, and a way for us to introduce some breaking changes for the users opting into the new edition. The release an edition is stabilized in (1.31 for Rust 2018) does not get any special treatment from the Rust team though, and that includes no LTS support (for example we won't backport bug fixes, even security ones).
  - galangalalgol 7y ago
    Yikes! I had no idea. It takes my company years sometimes to approve a new point release of software. Rhel subscription was my backdoor to get rust at work. I knew I'd never get a cargo access or a mirror approved, but i thought some day I'd push for an lts release. I don't see my company ever doing sw approval and transfer to our development network faster than once a year.
    - pietroalbini 7y ago
      Well with RHEL 8 you can get a pretty up to date rustc, as they update the version in their stable repos every three months (so every two releases): https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2019/11/07/support-lifecycle-for-clang-llvm-go-and-rust-in-red-hat-enterprise-linux-8/ https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2019/11/07/support-lifecy...
- umanwizard 7y ago
  As I pointed out in another comment, the definition of the 2015 edition is still changing (i.e., features from 2018 are getting backported to 2015), severely limiting the usefulness of the "edition" concept. E.g., if someone thinks "I'm going to target 2015 because I want my code to run on the rustc shipped with various slow-moving Linux distros", it doesn't help, because you might still not be able to target their code, unless they specifically target an older version of rustc, which nobody does.
  - Rusky 7y ago
    Editions solve an entirely separate problem, they were never meant to be LTS language snapshots. For example, C++ is considering adopting them in addition to their current versioning scheme: http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2019/p1881r0.html http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2019/p1881r0.... There has been discussion of a Rust LTS channel alongside stable/beta/nightly, which would try to solve that problem, but it has not been prioritized yet: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2483 https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2483 An actual frozen language is also a possibility, but probably won't happen until more work happens on an independent specification. Which, in fact, people are also working on: https://ferrous-systems.com/blog/sealed-rust-the-pitch/ https://ferrous-systems.com/blog/sealed-rust-the-pitch/
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      I wasn't aware of the Sealed Rust project. Very cool!
johnisgood 7y ago
I agree. That, and no need to rush new features, stabilize old ones and fix their bugs. I am still waiting for RFC0066[1] to be fixed. It is from 2014-05-04! Here is its GitHub Issue: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/15023 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/15023. Backstory: I started writing a relatively simple Rust program many years ago when I ran into this issue. It was my first attempt at writing Rust, and I did not like the workaround. [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/0066-better-temporary-lifetimes.md https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/0066-bett...

galangalalgol 7y ago

Rust has LTS like releases based on years, but the last one didnt have async await so everyone just kept tracking. I think the nexts LTS type release may snag some people and slow stuff down. Cargo should handle that fine, but not sure about maintainers. I cant get cargo in my day job, just the rustc 1.3x shipped with rhel, so I'm already standing still. Rhel's version migh make a good defacto lts in the absence of cargo, but the thin std lib makes that hard, and random old rustc versions sometimes don't play nice with every crate.

pietroalbini 7y ago
Rust doesn't have LTS releases. Editions are both a way to market the new features introduced in the past years as a "bundle" to outside users, and a way for us to introduce some breaking changes for the users opting into the new edition. The release an edition is stabilized in (1.31 for Rust 2018) does not get any special treatment from the Rust team though, and that includes no LTS support (for example we won't backport bug fixes, even security ones).
- galangalalgol 7y ago
  Yikes! I had no idea. It takes my company years sometimes to approve a new point release of software. Rhel subscription was my backdoor to get rust at work. I knew I'd never get a cargo access or a mirror approved, but i thought some day I'd push for an lts release. I don't see my company ever doing sw approval and transfer to our development network faster than once a year.
  - pietroalbini 7y ago
    Well with RHEL 8 you can get a pretty up to date rustc, as they update the version in their stable repos every three months (so every two releases): https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2019/11/07/support-lifecycle-for-clang-llvm-go-and-rust-in-red-hat-enterprise-linux-8/ https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2019/11/07/support-lifecy...
umanwizard 7y ago
As I pointed out in another comment, the definition of the 2015 edition is still changing (i.e., features from 2018 are getting backported to 2015), severely limiting the usefulness of the "edition" concept. E.g., if someone thinks "I'm going to target 2015 because I want my code to run on the rustc shipped with various slow-moving Linux distros", it doesn't help, because you might still not be able to target their code, unless they specifically target an older version of rustc, which nobody does.
- Rusky 7y ago
  Editions solve an entirely separate problem, they were never meant to be LTS language snapshots. For example, C++ is considering adopting them in addition to their current versioning scheme: http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2019/p1881r0.html http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2019/p1881r0.... There has been discussion of a Rust LTS channel alongside stable/beta/nightly, which would try to solve that problem, but it has not been prioritized yet: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2483 https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2483 An actual frozen language is also a possibility, but probably won't happen until more work happens on an independent specification. Which, in fact, people are also working on: https://ferrous-systems.com/blog/sealed-rust-the-pitch/ https://ferrous-systems.com/blog/sealed-rust-the-pitch/
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    I wasn't aware of the Sealed Rust project. Very cool!

johnisgood 7y ago

I agree. That, and no need to rush new features, stabilize old ones and fix their bugs. I am still waiting for RFC0066[1] to be fixed. It is from 2014-05-04! Here is its GitHub Issue: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/15023 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/15023. Backstory: I started writing a relatively simple Rust program many years ago when I ran into this issue. It was my first attempt at writing Rust, and I did not like the workaround. [1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/0066-better-temporary-lifetimes.md https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/0066-bett...