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It is intended to be, but in reality it’s just a system that trains students to pass tests. For the most part, such system leaves students highly skeptical towa

It is intended to be, but in reality it’s just a system that trains students to pass tests. For the most part, such system leaves students highly skeptical towards everything - which is a good thing.

WalterBright 7y ago
> it’s just a system that trains students to pass tests How do you verify that the students learned anything without some sort of tests?
- Porthos9K 7y ago
  Why does it matter?
  - ben509 7y ago
    As a citizen, I have a civic obligation to hold the government accountable for the use of my tax dollars.
    - Porthos9K 7y ago
      In that case, you have more pressing concerns than the public schools, such as the military-industrial-congressional complex, corporate welfare, and a tax code that privileges rent-seeking over labor.
      - ben509 7y ago
        Nonsense, besides the fact that I can look at more than one budget item at a time, education is one of the biggest[1], being between 20% and 40% of every state's budget. > ... and a tax code that privileges rent-seeking over labor. Education also has multiple lobbies that beside their own rent-seeking are indoctrinating young voters and more and more educators are engaging in partisan politics in the classroom. [1]: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/how-much-of-each-states-budget-goes-to-education https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/how-much-of-each-states-b...
        Porthos9K 7y ago
        Nice propaganda. LOL
    - icelancer 7y ago
      Standardized tests do this?
      - Porthos9K 7y ago
        According to one my neighbors, they just make it harder for her to do her job (as she understands it). In my case, I score in the 95th percentile or better on just about any standardized test you cared to put in front of me, but when I finally got free of K-12 schooling I only really had three useful skills: 1. How to take a punch. 2. How to dodge a punch. 3. How to throw a punch.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    How would you react to the pilot on your next flight never took any flying tests? Would you accept his assurances that "he knows how to fly"?
    - Porthos9K 7y ago
      Does K-12 education include civil aviation training now? It didn't when I was doing time, but that was in the 80s and 90s when we still did "duck and cover" drills as a placebo for the fear of nuclear holocaust rather than "active shooter" drills. Furthermore, testing for pilots isn't just filling out a form; there's a practical test as well as a knowledge test.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        Pilot training doesn't include teaching math. If you never learned math, you'll wash out of flight school. If you cannot calculate how much fuel you'll need, what your wind drift is, how to distribute the weight, etc., you aren't going to be a pilot. > Furthermore, testing for pilots isn't just filling out a form; there's a practical test as well as a knowledge test. You'll never get to the hands on flying part of the test unless you pass ground school tests first. Flying safely and competently is highly technical and nothing like jumping in a car and turning the key. Nobody is going to let you in a cockpit with an excuse like "I don't test well" or "I learn in an alternative fashion" or "I really do know how to fly, the tests are faulty" or the worst of all "I can't handle the stress of a test."
- smogcutter 7y ago
  The problem is, what are you actually verifying? Mostly memorization and test taking strategies. Wasn’t there just a thread complaining that whiteboard coding interviews are nonsense? It’s the same thing. “Some sort” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Some kind of assessment - yes, of course. But for example, consider a portfolio of work & a written evaluation vs a multiple choice exam. The latter is definitely easier, faster, and gives you a metric to print, but which is more valuable for the student? Which better demonstrates what you’ve learned? NB: obviously this is to an extent domain specific. I’m not talking about med school, and I don’t care about your evolving perspective on whether 2+2 equals 4, I just need to know whether you can add.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    > Mostly memorization and test taking strategies. Most people memorize the times tables. I discovered that there was a rule to them, which was much less work to learn. At Caltech, tests were open book and open note. Memorizing facts and strategies would do you no good at all. I didn't see any point to those methods, anyway, as I went to college to learn the material, and when I learned it, I did well on the tests.
    - smogcutter 7y ago
      Like I mentioned, it’s domain specific to an extent. Tests may be more effective in fields like engineering where there are specific correct answers and methods. But we’re talking about k-12, and nothing you did at caltech is relevant to hs standardized testing.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        I remember taking all those standardized tests all through grade school and high school. There was quite an obvious and consistent correlation between those who learned the material and did well on the test, and those who didn't and did poorly. This remained true whether the test was multiple choice, fill in the blank, or open ended.
- matheusmoreira 7y ago
  Get to know the student personally. Work with them on a daily basis. Mentor them over the long term. Their growth should be evident. Of course, this is not conducive to mass education programs with many tens if not hundreds of students per classroom.
pacificenigma 7y ago
> it’s just a system that trains students to pass tests There's more than one "system" out there. Millions of children attend schools where they prioritize dimensions other than simplistic mass testing (eg extra-curricular activities, sport, artistic, community service, compassion, spirituality).
matheusmoreira 7y ago
> in reality it’s just a system that trains students to pass tests Tests have correct answers. It's simple to ask a question about any controversial subject and mark the answer supported by the current narrative as correct. This forces students to not only consider the issue but also to answer "correctly". I've had to answer many such questions and the intent behind them was clear. It's usually disguised as a "human rights" question and is nothing but a mechanism to get students to agree with some left-leaning ideas.

WalterBright 7y ago

> it’s just a system that trains students to pass tests How do you verify that the students learned anything without some sort of tests?

Porthos9K 7y ago
Why does it matter?
- ben509 7y ago
  As a citizen, I have a civic obligation to hold the government accountable for the use of my tax dollars.
  - Porthos9K 7y ago
    In that case, you have more pressing concerns than the public schools, such as the military-industrial-congressional complex, corporate welfare, and a tax code that privileges rent-seeking over labor.
    - ben509 7y ago
      Nonsense, besides the fact that I can look at more than one budget item at a time, education is one of the biggest[1], being between 20% and 40% of every state's budget. > ... and a tax code that privileges rent-seeking over labor. Education also has multiple lobbies that beside their own rent-seeking are indoctrinating young voters and more and more educators are engaging in partisan politics in the classroom. [1]: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/how-much-of-each-states-budget-goes-to-education https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/how-much-of-each-states-b...
      - Porthos9K 7y ago
        Nice propaganda. LOL
  - icelancer 7y ago
    Standardized tests do this?
    - Porthos9K 7y ago
      According to one my neighbors, they just make it harder for her to do her job (as she understands it). In my case, I score in the 95th percentile or better on just about any standardized test you cared to put in front of me, but when I finally got free of K-12 schooling I only really had three useful skills: 1. How to take a punch. 2. How to dodge a punch. 3. How to throw a punch.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  How would you react to the pilot on your next flight never took any flying tests? Would you accept his assurances that "he knows how to fly"?
  - Porthos9K 7y ago
    Does K-12 education include civil aviation training now? It didn't when I was doing time, but that was in the 80s and 90s when we still did "duck and cover" drills as a placebo for the fear of nuclear holocaust rather than "active shooter" drills. Furthermore, testing for pilots isn't just filling out a form; there's a practical test as well as a knowledge test.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      Pilot training doesn't include teaching math. If you never learned math, you'll wash out of flight school. If you cannot calculate how much fuel you'll need, what your wind drift is, how to distribute the weight, etc., you aren't going to be a pilot. > Furthermore, testing for pilots isn't just filling out a form; there's a practical test as well as a knowledge test. You'll never get to the hands on flying part of the test unless you pass ground school tests first. Flying safely and competently is highly technical and nothing like jumping in a car and turning the key. Nobody is going to let you in a cockpit with an excuse like "I don't test well" or "I learn in an alternative fashion" or "I really do know how to fly, the tests are faulty" or the worst of all "I can't handle the stress of a test."
smogcutter 7y ago
The problem is, what are you actually verifying? Mostly memorization and test taking strategies. Wasn’t there just a thread complaining that whiteboard coding interviews are nonsense? It’s the same thing. “Some sort” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Some kind of assessment - yes, of course. But for example, consider a portfolio of work & a written evaluation vs a multiple choice exam. The latter is definitely easier, faster, and gives you a metric to print, but which is more valuable for the student? Which better demonstrates what you’ve learned? NB: obviously this is to an extent domain specific. I’m not talking about med school, and I don’t care about your evolving perspective on whether 2+2 equals 4, I just need to know whether you can add.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  > Mostly memorization and test taking strategies. Most people memorize the times tables. I discovered that there was a rule to them, which was much less work to learn. At Caltech, tests were open book and open note. Memorizing facts and strategies would do you no good at all. I didn't see any point to those methods, anyway, as I went to college to learn the material, and when I learned it, I did well on the tests.
  - smogcutter 7y ago
    Like I mentioned, it’s domain specific to an extent. Tests may be more effective in fields like engineering where there are specific correct answers and methods. But we’re talking about k-12, and nothing you did at caltech is relevant to hs standardized testing.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      I remember taking all those standardized tests all through grade school and high school. There was quite an obvious and consistent correlation between those who learned the material and did well on the test, and those who didn't and did poorly. This remained true whether the test was multiple choice, fill in the blank, or open ended.
matheusmoreira 7y ago
Get to know the student personally. Work with them on a daily basis. Mentor them over the long term. Their growth should be evident. Of course, this is not conducive to mass education programs with many tens if not hundreds of students per classroom.

pacificenigma 7y ago

> it’s just a system that trains students to pass tests There's more than one "system" out there. Millions of children attend schools where they prioritize dimensions other than simplistic mass testing (eg extra-curricular activities, sport, artistic, community service, compassion, spirituality).

matheusmoreira 7y ago

> in reality it’s just a system that trains students to pass tests Tests have correct answers. It's simple to ask a question about any controversial subject and mark the answer supported by the current narrative as correct. This forces students to not only consider the issue but also to answer "correctly". I've had to answer many such questions and the intent behind them was clear. It's usually disguised as a "human rights" question and is nothing but a mechanism to get students to agree with some left-leaning ideas.