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Paul Buchheit: The two paths to success
- derwiki 16y agoglad to hear paul thinks my alma mater (CWRU) is 'good enough' ;-)
- mechanical_fish 16y agoIt's as much of a statement about the inanity of the college-prestige game as it is about our alma mater. CWRU is more than good enough. As a school. As a brand name with snob appeal... I have to agree with Paul.
- derwiki 16y agoI say that a little tongue in cheek -- regardless of what Paul thinks about Case, he was certainly an inspiration to me, proving that what you actually do is more important than where you came from.
- ShabbyDoo 16y ago"I barely made it into the top 10% of my public high school class" As a guy who went to Case when Paul did (and only vaguely recalls interacting with him), I know that being on the right side of that 10% translated into $50K+ in scholarships given CWRU's by-the-numbers merit-based aid system. Edit: I'm just commenting on the significance of Paul's statement. A huge percentage of Case students would not have attended had it not been for the liberal disbursement of 75% off coupons without regard to financial need.
- kenjackson 16y agoOnly losers go to CWRU. People like Paul and Donald Knuth.
- stevejohnson 16y agoThe only two alumni anyone ever names in the tech world. But Paul calls it "good enough" and Knuth was there long enough ago that it was essentially a different school.
- kenjackson 16y agoHere's a more complete list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Case_Western_Reserve_University_people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Case_Western_Reserve_Un... With that said, being able to name two is better than most. Ask your average developer who famous (in CS circles) went to Yale, Columbia, Princeton, UIUC, etc... It's pretty rare that there is any association at all. Off the top of my head I don't know if I can name two of equal prominence from any of those schools (although I'm sure if I searched I could find some).
- poet 16y agoI doubt your average developer knows that Paul and Knuth went to Case Western. You're average developer probably doesn't know that the founder of Paypal and the co-founder of Youtube went to UIUC. I'm not really sure what argument you're trying to make. People in industry typically just don't care about these types of associations.
- kenjackson 16y agoNo offense, but did you read the thread? You kind of reiterated my point. The fact that most people cite, at best, Knuth and Paul says little about CWRU since most people can't cite anyone from virtually any other school. And BTW, UIUC was probably the biggest gimme... although I'm surprised you didn't go with Andreesen and Ozzie. Those are the names I most typically hear thrown out.
- stevejohnson 16y agoI'm at CWRU right now, trying so hard not to respond to that bit with a super-long comment. I'll just say this: smart people, go somewhere else, at least for CS. (If you're reading this comment years later, re-evaluate.) (Hi Adam!)
- timtadh 16y agoOr rather: It is good enough because it has smart students. The dept. has issues but the students are excellent.
- stevejohnson 16y agoYou're right, I should have said this. Some of the students here are amazing.
- pyjug 16y agoI like to think I'm intrinsically motivated, because I don't like to do the boring, repetitive things at work. On the other hand, I haven't done anything creative myself either. Jeez, I'm confused.
- farout 16y agoThank you. This is so true: "It takes time to find your internal voice, learn when to trust it, and stop fearing outside opinion." When I was young I did as I was told. It was easiest way for people to leave me alone so I would have time to do the things I wanted. Later I always wondered why I was never competing for prizes or honed a specific skill; I was having too much fun doing things that others could care less about. It was a great way of learning about being comfortable with myself. What great blog post. So well written, I am envious.
- nicholasjbs 16y agoSome of the saddest people I know are people who achieved a lot in high school/college (prestigious school, high grades, awards, etc) but were always chasing goals set by their parents. In their post-college life, they've found themselves aimless because they quite literally don't know what they love. Meanwhile, my friends who had the freedom to explore and learn what they're passionate about are much happier today. (Yeah, I know, plural of anecdote is not data, etc, etc. But my sample of kids who were allowed to do whatever they want is slightly larger than the norm here because I was unschooled my whole life and so I'm in the position of knowing a lot of 20-something unschoolers, in addition to my peers who went to public/private school.)
- coffeemug 16y agoWhat Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. Whoever wrote this must not be very good at what they do (assuming they agree with the opinion). Programming was an enormous amount of fun for me, I would have never gotten good at it if it weren't. In fact, everything I ever got good at was tremendous fun. Sometimes it was work and pure misery, but for the most part it was fun. Perhaps others tick differently from me, but based on conversations I had with people that are very good at what they do, I doubt it.
- luu 16y agoCompletely agreed. It's improving at something that's the most fun. As I get better at things, and improve more slowly, they become less fun. That's especially true of sports and other zero-sum competitive activities: it's really boring when winning is the only goal, and you know you're going to win.
- paulitex 16y agoIn fact it's often more fun at the beginning. As coders, we have to constantly be learning new things - new languages, frameworks, APIS, etc... more than most professions I know. Personally I think getting that first little project done, a first proof of concept, in a new (language/framework/api) to be exhilarating - probably more fun than almost anything afterwards.
- math 16y agoYes. I have to say though that after 20 years of exhilaration, the buzz is getting less and less for me each time. I think because the process of learning another new language, framework, API etc is now no longer new.
- ddkrone 16y agoMany activities become enjoyable after a certain amount of mastery. Overcoming the initial hurdles is not fun and it's important to stick with it but it seems like some Chinese parents overdo it. If you just give up because you can not overcome certain initial hurdles then you might miss out on something worthwhile but if after the initial hurdles you're still not liking it then it might be a good idea to pick up something else.
- inmygarage 16y agoMy favorite story from the Quora discussion on Chua's article (http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-ex...) was this one: "At one point, I attended a "piano camp" with other equally talented white students, and what struck me is that those students actually practiced for hours because they loved music, and genuinely practiced for hour after exhausting hour because they couldn't get enough of the emotional expression that piano afforded them. Piano held none of that for me." I think it's obvious when someone is truly passionate about something versus just doing it because they think it will get them another carrot. Is it possible, though, to have a functional society where everyone follows his or her passion? I believe it is, but would be curious to hear thoughts.
- klbarry 16y agoImpossible. The supply is already far, far higher than demand for certain professions - acting and basketball, for instance.
- paul 16y agoYou incorrectly assume those are the only activities that those people could possibly enjoy doing. Part of the trick is finding the overlap between enjoyable and productive.
- rdouble 16y agoI think what he meant is that there are many more people for whom basketball is their passion than can actually make a living with basketball. Therefore, it's impossible to have a society where everyone truly follows their passion.
- nicholasjbs 16y agoThere are lots of ways to make a living if basketball is your passion beyond playing it professionally. For instance, you could do a sports-based startup (http://fanvibe.com http://fanvibe.com) or coach middle schoolers or open a sports memorabilia store. I don't see how you could definitively know it's not possible.
- SMrF 16y agoIronically my mostly intrinsically motivated life was extrinsically validated while reading this piece.
- ajju 16y agoGreat post. The reference to Alfie Kohn is worth following up on. His book "Punished by Rewards" changed my world view about what motivates people.
- nicholasjbs 16y agoI'll give another vote for Alfie Kohn. Also, if you're interested in this stuff, check out John Holt. He explored the ideas Paul talks about and advocated a type of homeschooling called unschooling, which is student-led and based largely on intrinsic motivation.
- tastybites 16y agoI wish this tiger mom thing would just die. It's so embarrassing for Asian people that didn't have insane parents.
- farout 16y agoWow that is harsh. When I read her article, I shared it with my husband and my mom. My mom was shocked and saddened by it. My husband understood that she was essentially saying that she believed that her child could do it - like a coach who constantly pushes you because she believes in you even if you don't believe in yourself. I personally could not do this someone. However, it comes how to you convince someone that is worth the effort. There is an excellent book "Influencer: The Power to Change Anything" with great examples like curbing HIV transmission and eliminating guinea worm parasite. The bottom-line is the person who needs to do the change has to answer 2 questions essentially: Is this worth it? and am I really capable of doing it? For Amy's children she is answering question 2 for her children.
- barrkel 16y agoMy GF read Amy's book just the other day. She found it hilarious - the book mocks this parenting method. It's not intended as serious advice.
- bad_user 16y agolike a coach who constantly pushes you Analogies to sports come up a lot, but the difference is playing football / soccer / tennis / whatever is fun and that's why you are there; eating crap from that coach is just a side-effect of you wanting to be better at something. On the other hand in the child / parent relationship described in that article, the kid doesn't have a choice. He cannot change coaches, he cannot pick another sport. Some children endure and in fact may turn out better. But others become depressed adults. And if there's one thing I know: I'm not a father that wants his boy growing up to be miserable. So I'll try pushing him when he lacks purpose, but whatever he likes doing I'll encourage him.
- dailo10 16y agoNot to mention the fact that in the book she ultimately rejects the harsh, forced approach.
- stevenj 16y agoI'd be interested in reading paul's thoughts on creativity.
- brlewis 16y agoThis is close to what you want, since a hack is inherently creative: http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2009/10/applied-philosophy-aka-hacking.html http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2009/10/applied-philosophy-...
- zachallaun 16y agoI'm not lazy, I'm just intrinsically motivated. I love that characterization. In all seriousness, this article hit home for me. I went through high school bored and came out with well above average, but not stellar, grades. I was accepted into a good enough college (where I'm currently enrolled) and have plenty of time to pursue my own interests, one of which is launching a startup. Which I'm doing.
- uuilly 16y agoThe most depressing people I know were the results of either laissez fair parenting or overbearing parenting. If you let a kid do what he wants, he'll eat coco-puffs, watch TV and eventually turn to drugs and booze. If you're constantly on top of him, and if he doesn't burn out, he'll work incredibly hard for a goal that means nothing to him. I know 30 year olds who can't put a month of work together. I also know 30 year olds who have no idea why they became bankers and they ask their mom permission to switch jobs. Each one is depressing and there is a balance.
- nicholasjbs 16y agoI respectfully disagree in that I don't think the laissez fair approach necessarily leads to doing nothing but watching TV, etc. I was given tremendous freedom to explore and learn about what I wanted from a very young age on (and I was pretty much 100% in control of my educational priorities from about 12 on). My love of video games led to a love of programming and a general love of tech, which has led to entrepreneurship.
- nostrademons 16y agoHis claim was that "The most depressing people [I] know were the results of either laissez fair parenting or overbearing parenting", not that "laissez fair parenting and overbearing parenting lead to the most depressing people [I] know". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
- nicholasjbs 16y agoFair enough. I was more responding to the "there is a balance" comment, which I took to mean that uuilly thinks it's better on the whole if children are given some amount of freedom but are still forced to do certain things. That's the idea I was really trying to challenge, though that's admittedly not what I wrote in my first sentence. My comment was too hasty.
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- robryan 16y agoI guess as a parent you don't really want to encourage your kid to take it easy in high school if they do want to get into college as they might take it to easy. Best I guess to encourage them to do their best without being overbearing so they will only slack off a bit under that level.
- paulitex 16y ago"One of the problems I've faced throughout life is that I'm kind of lazy, or maybe I lack will power or discipline or something." - The guy who invented Gmail and founded FriendFeed
- nandemo 16y agoI'm not sure if I should be depressed or cheered up by that. Maybe depressed because compared to Buchheit I must be super lazy. Maybe cheered up because it might be that I'm no lazier than him, and might be able to accomplish great things just as well.
- ddkrone 16y agoHe's a smart guy so when he does tackle something he is very efficient. The stuff about being lazy is just his way of saying his intelligence was very poorly measured by usual metrics like academic success.
- farout 16y agoAt Exxon, they used to switch people every several years. The way it worked was: year 1 - learn to do this new position year 2 - actually do it correctly year 3 - now that you can do it correctly, can you improve it? Do you enjoy it and want to stay doing it?
- Create 16y agoThis is the typical anglo-saxon management method used in multinational companies (like English as language). The french call it mobilité forcée, and some of the consequences were exposed for example at France Telecom. It is a manipulative oppression method of working people by killing them existentially along with their family (i.e. your kid will have to change school every 2 years, along with all the friends). This could only work if it is voluntary (you don't loose your job and outlook if you don't play along), but then again the goal of puppeteers is completely the opposite.
- dpritchett 16y agoThe enslavement aspect only works when your employees never seriously think of taking a job across the street. It's pretty easy to spot the career developers, career managers, and the just-passing-through types at a big company. Interestingly, all three types tend think their chosen path is the best and safest.
- Create 16y agoTaking a job across the street means taking up another profession. This is the whole point: due to the economies of scale, taking a job across the street means literally restarting your career if you are "lucky" enough to find one and almost your entire life if you are less "in luck". A comparable job would be in another state, or even continent. Hence forced mobility. It is all about making sure cogwheels are replaceable by ensuring they are actually replaced on schedule.
- crjvice 16y agoThe cultural environment has a lot do with it too my friend. As a foreigner, my parents always taught education is the key to success. Obviously, they also forced me play the violin which I profoundly disliked.lol. However, being foreign, as we see the U.S as the land of opportunities, our parents want to make sure that we have a better future than they had back in the motherland. Thereby come the pressure our parents put upon us. Don't you think it is also important to see life from Chua's lenses?
- yarapavan 16y agoI love this: It's often said that people become entrepreneurs because they can't handle a regular job. Perhaps these people are simply too "defective" to fit into any mold, or maybe they lack the extrinsic motivation necessary to care about bosses, performance reviews, and other things which are so important for success in the corporate environment.
- macco 16y agoI don't believe in the Chinese model, too. But I think it is hard to say what is right or wrong. A lot of really succesful people were forced to work (z.B. Andre Agassi, Paco de Lucia, Mozart ...). Probably you need both for exelence: 1. you need to absolutely love what you do 2. but sometimes you need some preasure to stick to it.
- toadi 16y agoPeople tend to keep telling you have to follow your passion. I'm happy the guy who picks up my garbish every week is doing his job. Will he do it with great passion? Di I care. Luckily not everyone follows his passion but brings food on the table.
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- alikamp 16y agoNice post, but if you just applied yourself more and not be in a rush it would have been better C+
- 6ren 16y agoOn not wanting to amount to anything, chapter 33, The Tao Is Silent, Raymond Smullyan, p.150-4
- stretchwithme 16y agoI cannot upvote this enough.
- sanj 16y agoThis rings true to me, and I'm finally following my own intrinsic motivation. But it can be really hard to find a job that lets you do this. If you do, the first step is to realize you're in a rare position and take advantage of it. I'm lucky to have a work environment (go ahead and ask) and a home environment that lets me follow this path to the extent possible.
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- briancooley 16y agoThe final paragraph resonates with me. Of all the reasons I have ever considered for finding a more enjoyable but potentially less gainful way to make a dollar, the idea that my four-year-old is watching me both frightens me and builds my resolve the most.