4 ms·

SNCF (the rail company) is something like $45 Billion in debt? Their conductors can retire using last 6 months of wages (vs avg wages)? They can retire at 52?

SNCF (the rail company) is something like $45 Billion in debt? Their conductors can retire using last 6 months of wages (vs avg wages)? They can retire at 52? So payments will go to 82 (france has great life expectancy) That's 30 YEARS of pension payments! They are guaranteed a job for life? They get free / low cost housing? They get 28 regular paid days off an maybe another 22 or so RTT days? (ie, 50 paid days off before any sick / unpaid etc). Not bad! These articles always start with a description of how hard the job is. In Europe they actually have great automated safety systems for trains and the trainsets are in good condition. I realize it's a hard job, but boy - my heart goes out to greyhound bus drivers in the US and many many other workers with no where NEAR these benefits and frankly much harder jobs. The special pension folks are in the streets to protect their special pensions. Tie getting rid of the special pensions (which are often for the elites) with an increase to basic pension and social safety net for all?

skitout 7y ago
The protest is not about SNCF - they are only part of the pic. Let's talk about the pension reform in general, not about the SNCF (with some sloppy info btw)
- user5994461 7y ago
  The protest is about all the special pensions, SNCF and the 50 other, they're all quite similar.
  - skitout 7y ago
    I was in the protest with my friend entrepreneur, tour-guide, teacher, unemployed, artist-assistant and a bartender... Special pension is only one point of many, and there are different ways to deal with it. Note that for some special pension people pay more on their wages every month, and that special pension was also a way to stay attractive on the employment market with low salary...
    - privateSFacct 7y ago
      With formal youth unemployment at 20% or so, plenty of young folks would take some of these friends and family jobs and retire at 52 with a pension MUCH higher than most other french workers. There's already issues finding permanent employment in france with a temporary employment crisis. https://www.ft.com/content/119c2b4c-bc0c-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5 https://www.ft.com/content/119c2b4c-bc0c-11e8-94b2-17176fbf9... There is a reason you need to be on the inside track to get these "bad" jobs - because MANY folks would like them.
      - skitout 7y ago
        That is why they can't recruit math teachers for example...
        user5994461 7y ago
        There is no more shortage of math teachers than there is a shortage of developers.
user5994461 7y ago
In short, yes to all except the free housing. Don't know the exact debt number but it's massive. I doubt get they get free housing unless they're staying away from home (long distance train drivers). Noting pensions make no distinction between tubes, long distance train or administrative personnel. Special pensions are not for the elites, quite the opposite, it's mostly for government-related entities (including railways, education, research centers, military, energy).
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  Sorry - I meant elite workers! France has a three class system. Temporary workers and informal workers (sometimes terrible conditions), regular workers (state pension is not great, 50% of 25 year average), and workers with jobs that frankly ALREADY are better (railway admin jobs) AND that have the special pensions (crazy good). You could do accounting at the railway till 52 and then retire for 35 years! I love the idea - but not sure of the affordability.
einpoklum 7y ago
> SNCF is something like $45 Billion in debt? The state owns and controls the SNCF, its expenses, subsidies and pricing. Its debt is meaningless, in that the government decides how much in debt it is in. > can retire using last 6 months of wages (vs avg wages)? Retiring based on the status and position you've reached is common in many workplaces/industries, in many countries. > They are guaranteed a job for life? Nobody is guaranteed a job for life. If you mean to say, that if they do their job, the company can't fire them, then I don't see a problem with that. > They get free / low cost housing? They don't get free houses. Maybe they get free accommodations if their shifts take them far away from home; which would be reasonable. > They get 28 regular paid days off an maybe another 22 or so RTT days? Read about RTT days here: https://www.e-days.com/news/france-in-focus-understanding-different-countries-annual-leave https://www.e-days.com/news/france-in-focus-understanding-di... this is not special to railway conductors. The fact that in other countries people are being worked to the bone is the problem, not the fact that in France they aren't. Also, RTT is a means to decrease unemployment by spreading work among more people. Saying it's excessive means essentially "let's pay the same thing to less people for more work". Yes, the conditions are not bad; and people in the US should be inspired to organize, unionize - and not in those yellow collaborationist unions in the AFL-CIO, but in independent unions or in an IWW section, and demand decent, French-level employment conditions, at least.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  > The state owns and controls the SNCF, its expenses, subsidies and pricing. Its debt is meaningless, in that the government decides how much in debt it is in. The debt is a sign of the amount of additional subsidy needed to cover the benefits / expenses being paid. This amount (largish for France) will need to be paid by taxpayers. It is not meaningless. > Retiring based on the status and position you've reached is common in many workplaces/industries, in many countries. The french system normally pays based on a 25 year average pay (inflation adjusted)?Using most recent (highest paid) 6 months is not the same or standard. Can you name any other country that uses this method? Short periods like this are also prone to manipulation. > If you mean to say, that if they do their job, the company can't fire them, then I don't see a problem with that. The prohibition on layoffs consecutive to economic difficulties or technological changes is one of the benefits of the railway job - I'm just pointing that out. Other jobs even in france allows dismissal for economic reasons (if you offer employee modified job etc etc).

skitout 7y ago

The protest is not about SNCF - they are only part of the pic. Let's talk about the pension reform in general, not about the SNCF (with some sloppy info btw)

user5994461 7y ago
The protest is about all the special pensions, SNCF and the 50 other, they're all quite similar.
- skitout 7y ago
  I was in the protest with my friend entrepreneur, tour-guide, teacher, unemployed, artist-assistant and a bartender... Special pension is only one point of many, and there are different ways to deal with it. Note that for some special pension people pay more on their wages every month, and that special pension was also a way to stay attractive on the employment market with low salary...
  - privateSFacct 7y ago
    With formal youth unemployment at 20% or so, plenty of young folks would take some of these friends and family jobs and retire at 52 with a pension MUCH higher than most other french workers. There's already issues finding permanent employment in france with a temporary employment crisis. https://www.ft.com/content/119c2b4c-bc0c-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5 https://www.ft.com/content/119c2b4c-bc0c-11e8-94b2-17176fbf9... There is a reason you need to be on the inside track to get these "bad" jobs - because MANY folks would like them.
    - skitout 7y ago
      That is why they can't recruit math teachers for example...
      - user5994461 7y ago
        There is no more shortage of math teachers than there is a shortage of developers.

user5994461 7y ago

In short, yes to all except the free housing. Don't know the exact debt number but it's massive. I doubt get they get free housing unless they're staying away from home (long distance train drivers). Noting pensions make no distinction between tubes, long distance train or administrative personnel. Special pensions are not for the elites, quite the opposite, it's mostly for government-related entities (including railways, education, research centers, military, energy).

privateSFacct 7y ago
Sorry - I meant elite workers! France has a three class system. Temporary workers and informal workers (sometimes terrible conditions), regular workers (state pension is not great, 50% of 25 year average), and workers with jobs that frankly ALREADY are better (railway admin jobs) AND that have the special pensions (crazy good). You could do accounting at the railway till 52 and then retire for 35 years! I love the idea - but not sure of the affordability.

einpoklum 7y ago

> SNCF is something like $45 Billion in debt? The state owns and controls the SNCF, its expenses, subsidies and pricing. Its debt is meaningless, in that the government decides how much in debt it is in. > can retire using last 6 months of wages (vs avg wages)? Retiring based on the status and position you've reached is common in many workplaces/industries, in many countries. > They are guaranteed a job for life? Nobody is guaranteed a job for life. If you mean to say, that if they do their job, the company can't fire them, then I don't see a problem with that. > They get free / low cost housing? They don't get free houses. Maybe they get free accommodations if their shifts take them far away from home; which would be reasonable. > They get 28 regular paid days off an maybe another 22 or so RTT days? Read about RTT days here: https://www.e-days.com/news/france-in-focus-understanding-different-countries-annual-leave https://www.e-days.com/news/france-in-focus-understanding-di... this is not special to railway conductors. The fact that in other countries people are being worked to the bone is the problem, not the fact that in France they aren't. Also, RTT is a means to decrease unemployment by spreading work among more people. Saying it's excessive means essentially "let's pay the same thing to less people for more work". Yes, the conditions are not bad; and people in the US should be inspired to organize, unionize - and not in those yellow collaborationist unions in the AFL-CIO, but in independent unions or in an IWW section, and demand decent, French-level employment conditions, at least.

privateSFacct 7y ago
> The state owns and controls the SNCF, its expenses, subsidies and pricing. Its debt is meaningless, in that the government decides how much in debt it is in. The debt is a sign of the amount of additional subsidy needed to cover the benefits / expenses being paid. This amount (largish for France) will need to be paid by taxpayers. It is not meaningless. > Retiring based on the status and position you've reached is common in many workplaces/industries, in many countries. The french system normally pays based on a 25 year average pay (inflation adjusted)?Using most recent (highest paid) 6 months is not the same or standard. Can you name any other country that uses this method? Short periods like this are also prone to manipulation. > If you mean to say, that if they do their job, the company can't fire them, then I don't see a problem with that. The prohibition on layoffs consecutive to economic difficulties or technological changes is one of the benefits of the railway job - I'm just pointing that out. Other jobs even in france allows dismissal for economic reasons (if you offer employee modified job etc etc).