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> People working longer means... a little bit more unemployment this is not proved or true. society is not as simple as that. they thought unemployment will d

> People working longer means... a little bit more unemployment this is not proved or true. society is not as simple as that. they thought unemployment will drop if people worked only 35h a week, but it didn't. why don't you accept that people have to work longer? the population is not booming anymore so you cannot accept future generations to pay.

skitout 7y ago
"why don't you accept that people have to work longer? the population is not booming anymore so you cannot accept future generations to pay. " Well that is a political choice. There are option possible where we don't work longer, and option where we work longer. According to the option money and worked are not shared in the same way. Both option are possible - e.g. different economist have different personal preference. The only think we have to is to have a debate, and a democratic decision.
- PunchTornado 7y ago
  and will a democratic debate be achieved by mass protests in the street OR by elections? And Macron is an elected president. Instead of seeing who screams harder and who throws the bigger stones, lets see which politician is elected by the majority of French people.
  - skitout 7y ago
    Debate and a referendum would be the democratic way. Current French Republic was dubbed "presidential monarchy" (in no other democracy a single person had this level of power)... Since 2002 French President has even more power... And now with the extreme-right, who does not lose the first round of the presidential election (aside of extreme-right) win. Macron had been elected by 18% of voters, and have "full powers" for 5 years I personally don't think it is super democratic
sokoloff 7y ago
As life expectancy increases, it seems eminently reasonable that a typical working career would be longer. [1]-https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/graphs-maps/interpreted-graphs/life-expectancy-france/ https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/graphs-ma...
- wazoox 7y ago
  Life expectancy doesn't increase much; life expectancy in good health is decreasing, thanks to worsening work conditions. Are you supposed to work with crutches, canes and walking frames? In the meanwhile, during the past year the plutocrat class has seen its fortune soars immensely. This is revolting, this is a shame, and this has to stop. Now.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Eyeballing the graph, it looks like it’s growing about 10 years every 30 or 40 years. That’s fast enough to put a drain on the system to pay for a decade longer of pension for the average participant.
    - wazoox 7y ago
      There is no such animal as an "average participant". For a start, a low-wage male worker has a life expectancy of 74 while his manager has a life expectancy of 84. Conveniently, the managers pension system have amassed a huge cash pile of 150 billions (that the government -- these evil bastards -- plan to snatch away instead of spending it to pay pensions for the poor and the sick).
    - Amezarak 7y ago
      Almost all the gains in life expectancy are due to less children dying. Life expectancy for sixty year olds has increased by a single digit number of years in the past century and is stagnating or declining in most countries. The argument that we have to work longer because of increased life expectancy is absolutely a rip-off. People who survived to retirement are not living much longer than they were a hundred years ago.
wazoox 7y ago
In France, more than 60% of unemployed people over 58 stay unemployed until retirement. So pushing away the retirement date only worsen the situation. There are simply no jobs for the elderly. Unemployment dropped dramatically thanks to the 35h work-week. They provably created at least 350000 jobs ( https://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/actualite-economique/les-35-heures-ont-cree-350-000-emplois-affirme-un-rapport-censure-de-l-igas_1813373.html https://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/actualite-economique/les-35-h... ).
- PunchTornado 7y ago
  it dropped dramatically to ... still 10% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35-hour_workweek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35-hour_workweek many think that the 35h week had no impact on employment figures
  - einpoklum 7y ago
    Maybe the French don't under-count Employment like they do in many other countries; see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#Alternatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#Alternatives
    - user5994461 7y ago
      Rest assured, they undercount employment like every other country.
  - skitout 7y ago
    Note that 35h did not applied to everyone, relabeled some paid break time as unpaid work time... Most importantly it was "sold" by allowing companies more flexibility with the workers... gain in productivity, more pressure (and a bit of more overtime) explain why the impact on unemployment had not been massive. This is totally different than what happen with pension scheme. If people work more years, it means more people for the same "stock" of job at first... So more unemployment at least at short and medium term.
- user5994461 7y ago

skitout 7y ago

"why don't you accept that people have to work longer? the population is not booming anymore so you cannot accept future generations to pay. " Well that is a political choice. There are option possible where we don't work longer, and option where we work longer. According to the option money and worked are not shared in the same way. Both option are possible - e.g. different economist have different personal preference. The only think we have to is to have a debate, and a democratic decision.

PunchTornado 7y ago
and will a democratic debate be achieved by mass protests in the street OR by elections? And Macron is an elected president. Instead of seeing who screams harder and who throws the bigger stones, lets see which politician is elected by the majority of French people.
- skitout 7y ago
  Debate and a referendum would be the democratic way. Current French Republic was dubbed "presidential monarchy" (in no other democracy a single person had this level of power)... Since 2002 French President has even more power... And now with the extreme-right, who does not lose the first round of the presidential election (aside of extreme-right) win. Macron had been elected by 18% of voters, and have "full powers" for 5 years I personally don't think it is super democratic

sokoloff 7y ago

As life expectancy increases, it seems eminently reasonable that a typical working career would be longer. [1]-https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/graphs-maps/interpreted-graphs/life-expectancy-france/ https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/graphs-ma...

wazoox 7y ago
Life expectancy doesn't increase much; life expectancy in good health is decreasing, thanks to worsening work conditions. Are you supposed to work with crutches, canes and walking frames? In the meanwhile, during the past year the plutocrat class has seen its fortune soars immensely. This is revolting, this is a shame, and this has to stop. Now.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Eyeballing the graph, it looks like it’s growing about 10 years every 30 or 40 years. That’s fast enough to put a drain on the system to pay for a decade longer of pension for the average participant.
  - wazoox 7y ago
    There is no such animal as an "average participant". For a start, a low-wage male worker has a life expectancy of 74 while his manager has a life expectancy of 84. Conveniently, the managers pension system have amassed a huge cash pile of 150 billions (that the government -- these evil bastards -- plan to snatch away instead of spending it to pay pensions for the poor and the sick).
  - Amezarak 7y ago
    Almost all the gains in life expectancy are due to less children dying. Life expectancy for sixty year olds has increased by a single digit number of years in the past century and is stagnating or declining in most countries. The argument that we have to work longer because of increased life expectancy is absolutely a rip-off. People who survived to retirement are not living much longer than they were a hundred years ago.

wazoox 7y ago

In France, more than 60% of unemployed people over 58 stay unemployed until retirement. So pushing away the retirement date only worsen the situation. There are simply no jobs for the elderly. Unemployment dropped dramatically thanks to the 35h work-week. They provably created at least 350000 jobs ( https://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/actualite-economique/les-35-heures-ont-cree-350-000-emplois-affirme-un-rapport-censure-de-l-igas_1813373.html https://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/actualite-economique/les-35-h... ).

PunchTornado 7y ago
it dropped dramatically to ... still 10% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35-hour_workweek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35-hour_workweek many think that the 35h week had no impact on employment figures
- einpoklum 7y ago
  Maybe the French don't under-count Employment like they do in many other countries; see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#Alternatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#Alternatives
  - user5994461 7y ago
    Rest assured, they undercount employment like every other country.
- skitout 7y ago
  Note that 35h did not applied to everyone, relabeled some paid break time as unpaid work time... Most importantly it was "sold" by allowing companies more flexibility with the workers... gain in productivity, more pressure (and a bit of more overtime) explain why the impact on unemployment had not been massive. This is totally different than what happen with pension scheme. If people work more years, it means more people for the same "stock" of job at first... So more unemployment at least at short and medium term.
user5994461 7y ago