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Here's a bit offtopic diverging from the original topic into climate change. This situation seems to be very relevant to various arguments for tackling climate

Here's a bit offtopic diverging from the original topic into climate change. This situation seems to be very relevant to various arguments for tackling climate change and other environmental issues by "stopping growth". Thing is, a very large share of capital assets that "require" (i.e. expect) growth is the various types of pension funds. Any politician that would actually implement policies that intentionally cut economic growth in order to save the planet (or any other purpose) will ensure that the math for their local retirement system can't work out any more, that some pension reform will be neccessary, admitting that the expected benefits can't be paid out because the expected growth didn't happen. And as this example shows, there will be literal riots on the streets if that's threatened. Also, compare this to earlier gilets jaunes riots initially sparkled by a fuel tax increase, or the Chile riots sparkled by an increase in cost of public transportation. Climate change isn't bringing large quantities of violent protesters on the streets, but requirement to make economic sacrifices definitely is. So it's naive to expect success in cutting growth and aggressively taxing fossil fuels to help climate change - the general population will not only vote against it, they will violently fight to ensure that this is not done. Any politician who's actually serious about implementing the economic changes needed to stop climate change should expect be forcibly removed from power by a large part of their population which won't (and in many cases, can't, they're the poorer part of their society) tolerate short-term economic sacrifices. It's kind of sad, I don't know what can be done about this, but at least we should be aware about this issue when discussing any proposals that are supposed to be realistic.

skitout 7y ago
1. You are only talking about growth... We could also talked about how the GDP, the capital and the work is shared... You can have lower growth, but most people having more 2. Doing massive investment in favor of the climate (and against fossil fuel) would create a lot of wealth and job 3. Since the 70's they've been an augmentation in inequality, and most people live in an higher economic insecurity... The system seems unfair for most people. This is normal that people does not agree to do unfair sacrifice, while the top 20% of the people live a comfortable life... that does not means they are not ready to radical change
11235813213455 7y ago
So much agreed, I'm French. I wear a gilet jaune, but that's for saving my life when I ride a bike in the night. They also protested against speed limits decrease (https://www.gouvernement.fr/les-actions-du-gouvernement/interieur/la-limitation-de-vitesse-a-80-kmh-est-elle-efficace https://www.gouvernement.fr/les-actions-du-gouvernement/inte...), I often ride on 2-lane roads, and obviously the faster a car is, the most likely it is to kill me Aside from that, I'm auto-entrepreneur which gives a quite low retirement, but I don't think it's a reason to go on strike. I've had tough years, but always had some good margin, being used to spend very little money People can easily save money by changing their lifestyle, instead of asking for more money, for more unnecessary over-consumption. Those individual changes would be so beneficial for the environment and for themselves
- PunchTornado 7y ago
  and they also destroyed the speed cameras. I have a very low opinion about the gillets jaunes.
  - mensetmanusman 7y ago
    Haven’t speed cameras been shown to be the opposite of effective? They should disappear :)
martythemaniak 7y ago
Yes, I'm afraid various factions of the left who take this talk seriously are boxing themselves into a weird ideological straightjacket. It might be too late for them, but most people can still come to the realization that carbon and economic growth are not inherently linked and we should be working towards removing the obstacles to that world.
205guy 7y ago
This is an excellent observation, it sums up nicely some "big picture" thoughts I had myself on this topic. In fact I think it works at the individual level as well: I think climate-change skepticism/inaction comes from people who understand this consequence subconsciously. They like their cheap and easy energy, and the freedoms it brings (mobility, bigger/cheaper housing, consumerism), and they instinctively don't want to give up on anything. Cheap energy enables individualism (live far from others, self-reliant with lots of machinery and power tools, etc.) so it immediately has political ramifications.

skitout 7y ago

1. You are only talking about growth... We could also talked about how the GDP, the capital and the work is shared... You can have lower growth, but most people having more 2. Doing massive investment in favor of the climate (and against fossil fuel) would create a lot of wealth and job 3. Since the 70's they've been an augmentation in inequality, and most people live in an higher economic insecurity... The system seems unfair for most people. This is normal that people does not agree to do unfair sacrifice, while the top 20% of the people live a comfortable life... that does not means they are not ready to radical change

11235813213455 7y ago

So much agreed, I'm French. I wear a gilet jaune, but that's for saving my life when I ride a bike in the night. They also protested against speed limits decrease (https://www.gouvernement.fr/les-actions-du-gouvernement/interieur/la-limitation-de-vitesse-a-80-kmh-est-elle-efficace https://www.gouvernement.fr/les-actions-du-gouvernement/inte...), I often ride on 2-lane roads, and obviously the faster a car is, the most likely it is to kill me Aside from that, I'm auto-entrepreneur which gives a quite low retirement, but I don't think it's a reason to go on strike. I've had tough years, but always had some good margin, being used to spend very little money People can easily save money by changing their lifestyle, instead of asking for more money, for more unnecessary over-consumption. Those individual changes would be so beneficial for the environment and for themselves

PunchTornado 7y ago
and they also destroyed the speed cameras. I have a very low opinion about the gillets jaunes.
- mensetmanusman 7y ago
  Haven’t speed cameras been shown to be the opposite of effective? They should disappear :)

martythemaniak 7y ago

Yes, I'm afraid various factions of the left who take this talk seriously are boxing themselves into a weird ideological straightjacket. It might be too late for them, but most people can still come to the realization that carbon and economic growth are not inherently linked and we should be working towards removing the obstacles to that world.

205guy 7y ago

This is an excellent observation, it sums up nicely some "big picture" thoughts I had myself on this topic. In fact I think it works at the individual level as well: I think climate-change skepticism/inaction comes from people who understand this consequence subconsciously. They like their cheap and easy energy, and the freedoms it brings (mobility, bigger/cheaper housing, consumerism), and they instinctively don't want to give up on anything. Cheap energy enables individualism (live far from others, self-reliant with lots of machinery and power tools, etc.) so it immediately has political ramifications.