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Wow interesting. There seems to be more and more evidence that orcas, dolphins, and octopuses are very intelligent. I wonder if one of them would achieve huma

by chubot 7y ago

Wow interesting. There seems to be more and more evidence that orcas, dolphins, and octopuses are very intelligent. I wonder if one of them would achieve human-like intelligence if they evolved for a billion more years. I would bet on it. And then they would probably multiply without control, and kill off all their competitors. On land, humans have done that. Although elephants are very intelligent, we're the smarter than them and outnumber them and all other animals by a large margin. We live on nearly every part of the earth. It would be interesting/weird if the sea filled up with one large, intelligent animal that lived everywhere.

darkerside 7y ago
Without fire, it's hard to imagine the virtuous cycle getting kick-started in the same way
- chubot 7y ago
  Fire is important but, borrowing from Jared Diamond, I think agriculture/domestication is the defining technology that enables population density and growth. A steady food supply enables density, which leads to exchange of and competition in ideas. e.g. compare a city with 100,000 citizens vs. a hunter-gatherer society. Fire is related to agriculture but maybe not essential. It could be some other kind of chemical reaction that occurs outside the body. It's hard to imagine how descendants of orcas could create agriculture in the ocean, but not impossible. I mean humans have domesticated fish, shrimp, mollusks, etc. for farming. And probably some marine plants. It does seem like shallow water is probably the best bet, but maybe that's my lack of imagination.
  - darkerside 7y ago
    I agree agriculture is possible in some form. That's why I think the real blocker is combustion. Is there any other kind of chemical reaction that can generate energy that can be harnessed and that works underwater?
miles 7y ago
> Although elephants are very intelligent, we're the smarter than them and outnumber them and all other animals by a large margin. We are out-numbered by many orders of magnitude by a number of different animals: Which life form dominates Earth? http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150211-whats-the-most-dominant-life-form http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150211-whats-the-most-domin... This strange, glowing fish is more abundant than rats, chickens, and humans combined https://www.businessinsider.com/bristlemouth-fish-is-the-most-abundant-vertebrate-on-earth-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/bristlemouth-fish-is-the-mos... Along With Humans, Who Else Is In The 7 Billion Club? https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/11/03/141946751/along-with-humans-who-else-is-in-the-7-billion-club https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/11/03/141946751...
- chubot 7y ago
  Yes I definitely see that point of view. Being smart is a special case of being adaptable, but many other organisms thrive by being well adapted in their niche. On the other hand, Sapiens has a good quote about there being 2 (at least ?) orders of magnitude more domesticated dogs than wolves in the world. Ditto for pigs and wild hogs, or cattle and comparable wild herbivores. It has many other pretty shocking statistics about large cats, elephants, etc. The world today is simply much more suited to a dog's way of being than a wolves'. To put it more starkly, wolves will likely be extinct long before dogs are, because of their different relationship to humans. But of course ants and other species don't compete for the same resources as humans, and are complementary many ways.
  - cultofmetatron 7y ago
    aurochs are extinct
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  I think anyone reading that would assume he meant large animals.
njharman 7y ago
We are smarter, whatever that means. But not by that much. Our main differantor is technology. If you went back in time and looked at a feckless human tribe hunting it would not be that different than orcas, wolves or any other social mammal predator.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  With hands to build tools that build machines and books to communicate. Basically dialing advantages of hunting in packs up in orders of magnitude over time. Similarly, "the computer is a bicycle for the mind."
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> It would be interesting/weird if the sea filled up with one large, intelligent animal that lived everywhere. https://www.amazon.com/War-Newts-Karel-Capek/dp/0945774109/ https://www.amazon.com/War-Newts-Karel-Capek/dp/0945774109/
Felz 7y ago
It probably wouldn't take a billion years. The last common ancestor of humans and orcas seems to have been about 95 million years ago. For reference, a billion years ago, there were no animals or plants yet. Given that, maybe there are a lot of species that really weren't too far off from human level intellligence, but we just got there first?

by chubot 7y ago

darkerside 7y ago

Without fire, it's hard to imagine the virtuous cycle getting kick-started in the same way

chubot 7y ago
Fire is important but, borrowing from Jared Diamond, I think agriculture/domestication is the defining technology that enables population density and growth. A steady food supply enables density, which leads to exchange of and competition in ideas. e.g. compare a city with 100,000 citizens vs. a hunter-gatherer society. Fire is related to agriculture but maybe not essential. It could be some other kind of chemical reaction that occurs outside the body. It's hard to imagine how descendants of orcas could create agriculture in the ocean, but not impossible. I mean humans have domesticated fish, shrimp, mollusks, etc. for farming. And probably some marine plants. It does seem like shallow water is probably the best bet, but maybe that's my lack of imagination.
- darkerside 7y ago
  I agree agriculture is possible in some form. That's why I think the real blocker is combustion. Is there any other kind of chemical reaction that can generate energy that can be harnessed and that works underwater?

miles 7y ago

> Although elephants are very intelligent, we're the smarter than them and outnumber them and all other animals by a large margin. We are out-numbered by many orders of magnitude by a number of different animals: Which life form dominates Earth? http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150211-whats-the-most-dominant-life-form http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150211-whats-the-most-domin... This strange, glowing fish is more abundant than rats, chickens, and humans combined https://www.businessinsider.com/bristlemouth-fish-is-the-most-abundant-vertebrate-on-earth-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/bristlemouth-fish-is-the-mos... Along With Humans, Who Else Is In The 7 Billion Club? https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/11/03/141946751/along-with-humans-who-else-is-in-the-7-billion-club https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/11/03/141946751...

chubot 7y ago
Yes I definitely see that point of view. Being smart is a special case of being adaptable, but many other organisms thrive by being well adapted in their niche. On the other hand, Sapiens has a good quote about there being 2 (at least ?) orders of magnitude more domesticated dogs than wolves in the world. Ditto for pigs and wild hogs, or cattle and comparable wild herbivores. It has many other pretty shocking statistics about large cats, elephants, etc. The world today is simply much more suited to a dog's way of being than a wolves'. To put it more starkly, wolves will likely be extinct long before dogs are, because of their different relationship to humans. But of course ants and other species don't compete for the same resources as humans, and are complementary many ways.
- cultofmetatron 7y ago
  aurochs are extinct
stjohnswarts 7y ago
I think anyone reading that would assume he meant large animals.

njharman 7y ago

We are smarter, whatever that means. But not by that much. Our main differantor is technology. If you went back in time and looked at a feckless human tribe hunting it would not be that different than orcas, wolves or any other social mammal predator.

mixmastamyk 7y ago
With hands to build tools that build machines and books to communicate. Basically dialing advantages of hunting in packs up in orders of magnitude over time. Similarly, "the computer is a bicycle for the mind."

thaumasiotes 7y ago

> It would be interesting/weird if the sea filled up with one large, intelligent animal that lived everywhere. https://www.amazon.com/War-Newts-Karel-Capek/dp/0945774109/ https://www.amazon.com/War-Newts-Karel-Capek/dp/0945774109/

Felz 7y ago

It probably wouldn't take a billion years. The last common ancestor of humans and orcas seems to have been about 95 million years ago. For reference, a billion years ago, there were no animals or plants yet. Given that, maybe there are a lot of species that really weren't too far off from human level intellligence, but we just got there first?