3 ms·

Whether that's "wrong" or "right" is a matter of opinion. But it's hard to argue with the fact that many more people seem to prefer Java's approach to Microsoft

by pron 7y ago

Whether that's "wrong" or "right" is a matter of opinion. But it's hard to argue with the fact that many more people seem to prefer Java's approach to Microsoft's. As to .NET's "insane under the hood" innovation, the platform is similar to what Java was about 10-15 years ago in terms of GC, JIT compilation and monitoring. .NET prefers changing the language, while Java prefers changing the platform. The two just have a different DNA. I've always felt that while there's a clear bottom-line "business" advantage to improving performance or observability, language features are almost always questionable because we can't find any evidence they make a real difference in practice. The main difference it seems to make is in the number of developers who vocally love or vocally hate a particular feature, and in giving a feeling of "vibrancy" to developers who perhaps sometimes care about their code more than about the program it's part of.

BoorishBears 7y ago
Haha, the way you just handwave away the last few years of .NET/CLR/Roslyn/DLR changes means I've seen this is a waste of my time and will stop checking for replies But uh yeah... what percentage of Java developers are still on Java EE 7, 8? The "business advantage" is in things not changing. If you compare languages by business advantage then Java 1 wins because "we haven't had to waste money upgrading since the 90s!" I'm going for something a little more meaningful, developer ergonomics, which you hand-wave away as not being valuable to a business (protip: if your developers get to care about their code that's a good thing, you'll find you can get better developers if you look for the ones who do)
- pron 7y ago
  Putting aside which platform has better developer ergonomics -- something that's obviously very subjective -- you think that linguistic features that have not been found to make any significant impact are "more meaningful" than things that make software more valuable just because you feel very strongly about that? Also, seeing that I've been a professional developer for more than a couple of decades now, I hope you'll forgive me if I ignore your "pro" tip. Programmers who care about code are, indeed, often better than those who care about nothing at all, but if you want to hire good developers, you'll hire those who care about the product more than about code. They'll be much more expensive, though.
- ivanche 7y ago
  > But uh yeah... what percentage of Java developers are still on Java EE 7, 8? I hope around 90% or more, because Java EE 8 is the latest version of Java EE.
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    Java (EE 7 or 8)...
phillipcarter 7y ago
I’d recommend spending some more time with .NET Core and comparing its performance characteristics (as of .NET Core 3.1). I think you’ll find it compares quite favorably, with recent advances like Span making a big difference. While it’s accurate to say the CLR has been behind on the desktop for a long while, the rekindled effort around advancing the runtime in .NET Core has paid off in spades and has only really just begun. It sounds like your impression is rooted in the desktop CLR, which is effectively frozen for compatibility reasons.
- pron 7y ago
  I'm sure it has, but in the meantime Java is making great strides as well on multiple important fronts -- low-latency GCs, a next-gen JIT, AOT compilation, native ffi, low-overhead in-production profiling and lightweight concurrency, and the main problem with Microsoft's technologies remains that they break compatibility every five-six years or so. Now it's .NET Core, and it wouldn't be a bad bet to guess that in five years it will be something else. We're at a point where it's so hard to make changes with a big bottom-line impact (arguably there weren't too many such advances in the past twenty years) that very few actually justify breaking compatibility, and companies know that. So while smaller software can afford switching from one technology to the other, big "important" stuff requires a compatibility lifespan of at least ten if not fifteen years, something that Microsoft has never been good at. It's possible that with their focus shifting more to the backend with their cloud offering that would change, but it appears that their cloud strategy is to support all software platforms rather than focus on their own. That's why we see Microsoft now hiring engineers, as well as getting some CLR engineers, to contribute to Oracle's OpenJDK [1]. [1]: https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2019-October/005173.html https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2019-October...
  - phillipcarter 7y ago
    > something that Microsoft has never been good at Well, you're certainly entitled to that opinion :) As I said, I encourage you to explore .NET Core and its recent advances, especially now that the big runtime improvements made in recent years have proliferated throughout the standard library and new language features. While it's fair (and correct) to say that the Java runtime is ahead due to many years of focused improvements, I think you'll find the difference quite a bit smaller than it was back when .NET was focused mainly on Windows desktop software.

by pron 7y ago

BoorishBears 7y ago

Haha, the way you just handwave away the last few years of .NET/CLR/Roslyn/DLR changes means I've seen this is a waste of my time and will stop checking for replies But uh yeah... what percentage of Java developers are still on Java EE 7, 8? The "business advantage" is in things not changing. If you compare languages by business advantage then Java 1 wins because "we haven't had to waste money upgrading since the 90s!" I'm going for something a little more meaningful, developer ergonomics, which you hand-wave away as not being valuable to a business (protip: if your developers get to care about their code that's a good thing, you'll find you can get better developers if you look for the ones who do)

pron 7y ago
Putting aside which platform has better developer ergonomics -- something that's obviously very subjective -- you think that linguistic features that have not been found to make any significant impact are "more meaningful" than things that make software more valuable just because you feel very strongly about that? Also, seeing that I've been a professional developer for more than a couple of decades now, I hope you'll forgive me if I ignore your "pro" tip. Programmers who care about code are, indeed, often better than those who care about nothing at all, but if you want to hire good developers, you'll hire those who care about the product more than about code. They'll be much more expensive, though.
ivanche 7y ago
> But uh yeah... what percentage of Java developers are still on Java EE 7, 8? I hope around 90% or more, because Java EE 8 is the latest version of Java EE.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  Java (EE 7 or 8)...

phillipcarter 7y ago

I’d recommend spending some more time with .NET Core and comparing its performance characteristics (as of .NET Core 3.1). I think you’ll find it compares quite favorably, with recent advances like Span making a big difference. While it’s accurate to say the CLR has been behind on the desktop for a long while, the rekindled effort around advancing the runtime in .NET Core has paid off in spades and has only really just begun. It sounds like your impression is rooted in the desktop CLR, which is effectively frozen for compatibility reasons.

pron 7y ago
I'm sure it has, but in the meantime Java is making great strides as well on multiple important fronts -- low-latency GCs, a next-gen JIT, AOT compilation, native ffi, low-overhead in-production profiling and lightweight concurrency, and the main problem with Microsoft's technologies remains that they break compatibility every five-six years or so. Now it's .NET Core, and it wouldn't be a bad bet to guess that in five years it will be something else. We're at a point where it's so hard to make changes with a big bottom-line impact (arguably there weren't too many such advances in the past twenty years) that very few actually justify breaking compatibility, and companies know that. So while smaller software can afford switching from one technology to the other, big "important" stuff requires a compatibility lifespan of at least ten if not fifteen years, something that Microsoft has never been good at. It's possible that with their focus shifting more to the backend with their cloud offering that would change, but it appears that their cloud strategy is to support all software platforms rather than focus on their own. That's why we see Microsoft now hiring engineers, as well as getting some CLR engineers, to contribute to Oracle's OpenJDK [1]. [1]: https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2019-October/005173.html https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2019-October...
- phillipcarter 7y ago
  > something that Microsoft has never been good at Well, you're certainly entitled to that opinion :) As I said, I encourage you to explore .NET Core and its recent advances, especially now that the big runtime improvements made in recent years have proliferated throughout the standard library and new language features. While it's fair (and correct) to say that the Java runtime is ahead due to many years of focused improvements, I think you'll find the difference quite a bit smaller than it was back when .NET was focused mainly on Windows desktop software.