4 ms·
> fraud, slander, libel, incitement to violence, conspiracy, etc. Let's go one by one: * Fraud: not sure what you mean here. Fraudulent speech? Lying isn't a
by the_watcher 7y ago
> fraud, slander, libel, incitement to violence, conspiracy, etc.
Let's go one by one:
* Fraud: not sure what you mean here. Fraudulent speech? Lying isn't a crime. Fraud is a crime that might involve speech, but there are more elements than simply stating an untruth.
* Slander/libel: Yes, this is an exception, but it is notably narrow and again has additional required elements.
* Incitement to violence: Nope. Incitement to _lawless_ action is simply one of the elements of the sole case in which someone can be prosecuted for _speech alone_ ("directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.")
* Conspiracy: Again, unsure what you mean. Where is the "conspiracy" exception to free speech?
- thaumasiotes 7y ago> Lying isn't a crime. Wellllll... In the US, the courts are split over whether untrue speech is protected by the first amendment. And there are some very wide-ranging laws that require "honest dealing" or "honest services" in general at all times.
- the_watcher 7y agoCan you provide citations for this? "Honest dealing" and "honest services" laws all require more than simply "untrue speech", in every case that I've seen.
- thaumasiotes 7y agoThe recent college admissions scandal mostly charged parents with wire fraud, if I recall correctly. The fraudulent part of their conduct consisted solely of untrue speech, representing to a school that an SAT score was earned by their child when it wasn't, or representing to the College Board that the person taking the test was their child when it wasn't.[1] [1] There were other methods, but the two I list here seem in my eyes to consist exclusively of untrue speech. There were also fraud charges associated with representing payments as donations to a charity (for tax reasons) when they were meant as quid pro quo payment for services. If the tax fraud was the basis for every fraud charge, I'll admit that this example is invalid.
- the_watcher 7y agoWire fraud requires an intent to defraud ("obtaining money or property"). In your example, the defendants were all free to lie about someone being their child. They were not free to lie about it for the purpose of defrauding the College Board, which meets all of the standards of Brandenberg (inciting imminent lawless behavior that is then likely to occur).
- thaumasiotes 7y agoWhat lawless behavior does that incite?