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The definition of freedom depends on what you value, and what you value varies with time and place. Were sweatshop workers in New York City free? Ranch hand e

by VLM 7y ago

The definition of freedom depends on what you value, and what you value varies with time and place. Were sweatshop workers in New York City free? Ranch hand employees out west? Chinese railroad workers in the USA? Are starving workers freer than well fed slaves? Theres a big push underway now to get rid of all American civil rights in favor of security theater, will we be free once we eliminate the Bill of Rights? Kinda unclear what this "free" thing is and who has it.

ninkendo 7y ago
> Theres a big push underway now to get rid of all American civil rights in favor of security theater Huh?
- stallmanite 7y ago
  4th amendment, 2nd amendment. You really don’t see this?
  - ninkendo 7y ago
    No, I really don’t. Could you elaborate? 2nd amendment rights are stronger than ever. 4th amendment rights issues kinda peaked about 10 years ago, and although Snowden certainly shined a bright light on some shady things, I would hardly call it a “big push”, given the backlash and the fact that the public doesn’t seem to be going along with it. I’m much more concerned about the entire public’s outright willingness to broadcast every facet of our lives right out in public for anyone to see (what the IC would call “open source” intelligence) than any spying the government is doing on our private information.
    - stallmanite 7y ago
      2nd amendment is doing ok I’ll walk that one back. 4th amendment is dead and buried. Totally agree that the public not giving a fuck is a severe problem. Cheers
danans 7y ago
> Were sweatshop workers in New York City free? Ranch hand employees out west? Chinese railroad workers in the USA? Slaves were definitionally not free under the law - their bodies were property of masters, just like farm animals were. If those slaves escaped their owners, they were legally allowed to be hunted down and returned. That is a fundamental difference than the sweatshop, railway, or other workers, even though those workers were also abused by their employers. They still had the option to walk away, even if it meant accepting the destitution as a result. Lots of them did walk away and starve. Some toiled away as workers generation upon generation. A few went on to build great wealth and influence, as is evidenced by the rise of the early industrialist families of the United States. > Are starving workers freer than well fed slaves? Absolutely, and that doesn't excuse a system that lets free workers starve, just as a full stomach does not excuse the enslavement of humans.

by VLM 7y ago

ninkendo 7y ago

> Theres a big push underway now to get rid of all American civil rights in favor of security theater Huh?

stallmanite 7y ago
4th amendment, 2nd amendment. You really don’t see this?
- ninkendo 7y ago
  No, I really don’t. Could you elaborate? 2nd amendment rights are stronger than ever. 4th amendment rights issues kinda peaked about 10 years ago, and although Snowden certainly shined a bright light on some shady things, I would hardly call it a “big push”, given the backlash and the fact that the public doesn’t seem to be going along with it. I’m much more concerned about the entire public’s outright willingness to broadcast every facet of our lives right out in public for anyone to see (what the IC would call “open source” intelligence) than any spying the government is doing on our private information.
  - stallmanite 7y ago
    2nd amendment is doing ok I’ll walk that one back. 4th amendment is dead and buried. Totally agree that the public not giving a fuck is a severe problem. Cheers

danans 7y ago

> Were sweatshop workers in New York City free? Ranch hand employees out west? Chinese railroad workers in the USA? Slaves were definitionally not free under the law - their bodies were property of masters, just like farm animals were. If those slaves escaped their owners, they were legally allowed to be hunted down and returned. That is a fundamental difference than the sweatshop, railway, or other workers, even though those workers were also abused by their employers. They still had the option to walk away, even if it meant accepting the destitution as a result. Lots of them did walk away and starve. Some toiled away as workers generation upon generation. A few went on to build great wealth and influence, as is evidenced by the rise of the early industrialist families of the United States. > Are starving workers freer than well fed slaves? Absolutely, and that doesn't excuse a system that lets free workers starve, just as a full stomach does not excuse the enslavement of humans.