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> It is funny that the dog whistle for conservatism these days are the immigrants whom are supposedly taking peoples jobs. You have this backwards. My point wa

> It is funny that the dog whistle for conservatism these days are the immigrants whom are supposedly taking peoples jobs. You have this backwards. My point wasn't that immigrants are taking American jobs, it was that Americans are giving them these jobs because Americans are being lazy, soft and cheap. The immigrant is not at fault. It seems like you're responding to Fox News talking points, not to me. I would suggest doing that on foxnews.com. At no point did I suggest that better labor standards are a bad idea, but I did observe that anyone who thinks society will eliminate all the jobs Hacker News perceives as shitty is drinking a lot of kool-aid.

distances 7y ago
> You have this backwards. My point wasn't that immigrants are taking American jobs, it was that Americans are giving them these jobs because Americans are being lazy, soft and cheap. Don't blame the American who doesn't want to do back-breaking work for pennies. It's the same everywhere: for example, Finland imports seasonal berry pickers from Thailand. No sane local wants to work on the rates the market is willing to pay; mechanised agriculture has pushed the prices low enough to make manual agricultural work simply unsustainable. To make local work profitable we'd need to radically raise the product prices or provide subsidies.
- apatters 7y ago
  To the extent that America is still a representative democracy, Americans are responsible for importing workers who have limited rights and no representation (they can't vote, they can't contact law enforcement for help, etc). These problems can be solved in other ways. A real world solution probably involves some workers getting paid less than they would like, and some businesses paying higher wages than they want to. The least moral solution is to develop an illegal underclass and deny them human and political rights. This sort of thing is cancerous for a democracy and bears an unsettling resemblance to one of America's original sins, one which I'm sure I don't need to name directly, but which we knew was wrong from day one, and which we spent a lot of blood and treasure to abolish.
  - distances 7y ago
    On this I agree. In Finland the seasonal workers do have strong protections, and recently some witnesses were flown in from Thailand to testify in a court case against one of the exploiting employers. The rules and regulations are thankfully strong and enforced in most of Europe; they definitely can contact the police. I'm not sure how to react to cases where this is true but the seasonal workers still see it as a good source of income. Would the market bear the increased cost? Likely not. Avocados would be imported in the US, and in Finland berries would disappear as an industry ingredient as there are no low-cost countries with climate suitable for cultivation.

distances 7y ago

> You have this backwards. My point wasn't that immigrants are taking American jobs, it was that Americans are giving them these jobs because Americans are being lazy, soft and cheap. Don't blame the American who doesn't want to do back-breaking work for pennies. It's the same everywhere: for example, Finland imports seasonal berry pickers from Thailand. No sane local wants to work on the rates the market is willing to pay; mechanised agriculture has pushed the prices low enough to make manual agricultural work simply unsustainable. To make local work profitable we'd need to radically raise the product prices or provide subsidies.

apatters 7y ago
To the extent that America is still a representative democracy, Americans are responsible for importing workers who have limited rights and no representation (they can't vote, they can't contact law enforcement for help, etc). These problems can be solved in other ways. A real world solution probably involves some workers getting paid less than they would like, and some businesses paying higher wages than they want to. The least moral solution is to develop an illegal underclass and deny them human and political rights. This sort of thing is cancerous for a democracy and bears an unsettling resemblance to one of America's original sins, one which I'm sure I don't need to name directly, but which we knew was wrong from day one, and which we spent a lot of blood and treasure to abolish.
- distances 7y ago
  On this I agree. In Finland the seasonal workers do have strong protections, and recently some witnesses were flown in from Thailand to testify in a court case against one of the exploiting employers. The rules and regulations are thankfully strong and enforced in most of Europe; they definitely can contact the police. I'm not sure how to react to cases where this is true but the seasonal workers still see it as a good source of income. Would the market bear the increased cost? Likely not. Avocados would be imported in the US, and in Finland berries would disappear as an industry ingredient as there are no low-cost countries with climate suitable for cultivation.