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Huzzah! A straw man attack! Am I seriously the only person on HN who has gotten useful, effective stuff from both of Tim's books? Does everyone just hate him b

Huzzah! A straw man attack! Am I seriously the only person on HN who has gotten useful, effective stuff from both of Tim's books? Does everyone just hate him because he's such an effective promoter that they assume he must be selling snake oil? 4HWW led me to quit my job and start freelancing, spend three months traveling through Asia, build some online passive income streams, and generally have a healthier respect towards my time and how I spend it. The 4 Hour Body has led me to completely change my diet over the last 6-8 weeks and I feel incredible, better than I have in a long time. I know I'm not the only one, but am I the only one on HN?

klbarry 16y ago
It reminds me of the criticisms of Guy Kawasaki (of Rich Dad, Poor Dad fame). He gives mostly excellent advice, but markets it to the lowest common denominator so a lot of smart people turn away. It actually shows something about the HN crowd. We're actually susceptible to marketing; the stuff we value is stuff that doesn't look like 4 hour workweek, even if it might work better. EDIT: It's actually Robert Kiyosaki, how embarassing.
- apalmblad 16y ago
  Didn't you mean Robert Kiyosaki? I'm not sure how Kawasaki is attached to Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
- patrickgzill 16y ago
  Guy Kawasaki is an early Apple employee who wrote the book "The Macintosh Way" among others. Roert Kiyosaki wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kiyosaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kiyosaki
- AlexC04 16y ago
  I also really liked Rich Dad, Poor Dad. :)
- rikthevik 16y ago
  Woah. Guy Kawasaki was chief evangelist at Apple. Robert Kiyosaki is the hack who wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad, a book that advocates highly risky real estate maneuvers and multi-level marketing. His books are endorsed by the newest incarnation of Amway.
  - salemh 16y ago
    http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html "A number of people asked me about Robert T. Kiyosaki and his book Rich Dad, Poor Dad. When I said I didn’t think he was a real-estate guru, they insisted he was. Several told me I would like him, that he preaches a message like mine. Eager to find such a guru, I bought his book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, in a bookstore. Summary Rich Dad, Poor Dad is one of the dumbest financial advice books I have ever read. It contains many factual errors and numerous extremely unlikely accounts of events that supposedly occurred. Kiyosaki is a salesman and a motivational speaker. He has no financial expertise and won’t disclose his supposed real estate or other investment success. Rich Dad, Poor Dad contains much wrong advice, much bad advice, some dangerous advice, and virtually no good advice."
  - klbarry 16y ago
    He doesn't advocate the real estate maneuvers particularly, he just uses it as an example of an asset that can be built using leverage. He gives MLM literally two sentences, as an example of something that can bring recurring income (however misguided he may be). You have to admit the description of assets and liabilities (85% of the book) is spot on and excellent advice for many people. Look at any Indian immigrant with taxi medallions or franchises.
- jamesbressi 16y ago
  +1 for making my brow bend and then laugh out loud when you corrected yourself and ended with "how embarrassing". I really needed that today, hope you don't mind it was at your expense--so I gave some karma your way. I was just in a miserable mood and relief came in an unexpected place. Cheers! (sorry this is off topic to the rest)
- jarin 16y ago
  I tell you what, despite the lack of any actionable information whatsoever, Rich Dad, Poor Dad was what inspired me to go into business for myself. Four Hour Work Week (despite not having THAT much actionable information for me) was the book that inspired me to stay in business for myself when times got tough. Maybe Four Hour Body will be the book that inspires me to not be fat, who knows.
mberning 16y ago
I think this is just poking some lighthearted fun at Tim. I've lost about 35 lbs on the slow carb diet, so yes, that part of the book works for me. Other parts seem more dubious, but it does give you plenty to think about/research.
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  Actually, the post didn't bother me as much as the comments here on HN. The knee-jerk reactions that many HN'ers have towards Tim and his books are as bad as the naive gullibility they think they're rejecting. Neither require any kind of critical thinking or logical analysis.
  - beagle3 16y ago
    If I could upvote you more than once, I would.
smallegan 16y ago
Haters Gonna Hate, I love both books and have gotten plenty of great info and inspiration from them. And if nothing else I've enjoyed picking up on some great marketing tactics that he uses that obviously are working :-P
simonpreed 16y ago
No I found it very useful, i've lost a significant amount of weight and feel a lot better. I do wonder why HN readers seem to dislike Tim's books so much.
- jlees 16y ago
  It's not so much his books, it's him. On the surface he's the ideal HN idol; A/B tests and measures everything, scientific approach to life. But on the flipside he is wildly successful and has intimate relations with members of the opposite sex. Who wouldn't hate him? ;)
kmfrk 16y ago
How is this a straw man attack?
- klochner 16y ago
  It would be a straw man attack if the author had proceeded to logically refute his own satire and claim it was a refutation of Tim's methods. Note: the above would have to be done without breaking a smile.
  - chc 16y ago
    Or it would be that the satire is meant to reflect Tim's methods and the ridiculousness is meant as a refutation (in much the same way that "A Modest Proposal" was meant as a criticism of Britain's callousness — satire is generally a form of criticism).
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
DanielBMarkham 16y ago
You know, it's possible to admire Tim and his work and still feel that the general style, this entire genre of books has jumped the shark. Taken like that, it's not an attack, just some gentle ribbing. And it's not even directed at Tim per really -- it's the rest of us who eagerly buy into such over the top nonsense that's really being made fun of. (I haven't read the book or know from Tim. But I'm very familiar with this style of writing. In my 20s I bought all sorts of these books and tapes, so this style has been around for a long time)
- jlees 16y ago
  What I found interesting was that he tested a ton of titles for the book and the "4-Hour" thing was the winner - it's not him that chose it, it's the market.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    Why not let the market write the rest of the book, too? No problem with a little bit of A-Z-Testing.
    - jsackmann 16y ago
      In a sense, that's what an active blogger does before going blog-to-book. True, the author is the one putting the sentences together, but the market has a lot of say in the direction future articles go, and what of the blog content goes into the book version.
    - michaelbuckbee 16y ago
      This was actually a Family Guy episode. Brian wrote a million selling self help book that was 1/3 blank where you were supposed to list your hopes and dreams.
  - wyclif 16y ago
    Here's my fave commentary on the Ferriss snake-oil schtick: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/01/08/5-time-management-tricks-i-learned-from-years-of-hating-tim-ferriss/ http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/01/08/5-time-management-t...
c0nsilience 16y ago
Nice try, Tim Ferris.
AlexC04 16y ago
I got a LOT out of 4HWW, I haven't quit my job and gone freelancing yet - but now that you mention it, it sounds like a good idea. 4HB I can say that I don't feel like I've gotten anything of value from it. I felt really disappointed and let down by it. I also felt like some of the advice in there was so wrong it bordered on being dangerous. Tim Ferris is highly controversial on HN. He's got a lot of supporters and a lot of detractors on here. I've been both. As for the 4-Hour dentist, I think that it was really funny. Actually laughed.
vertr 16y ago
The top of the article says "humor." This is satire. Satire can use whatever kind of attack it wants to get it's point across.
jonathanjaeger 16y ago
It's unfortunate that he has to use techniques like gain 28lbs of muscle in four weeks (or similar hype) to sell books. Clearly that's manipulation because even if he gained that many pounds in a month, he definitely didn't gain that much muscle. He's stretching words more so with 4HB than with 4HWW. HOWEVER, he has data to back up a lot of his claims and a lot of the tips he gives are great. So if it takes some of these techniques to sell, maybe it's worth it. His books are a lot more substantial than other self-help books.
Luc 16y ago
Looking at your blog http://ryanwaggoner.com/ http://ryanwaggoner.com/ , I can see why you would come to his defence. You're obviously very much into self-help books. That stuff doesn't work for everyone.
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  That didn't take long. I'm actually NOT very much into self-help books. I can count on both hands the number I've read, and on one hand the number I've enjoyed. But I do think that there are a few that are valuable. And I'm quite skeptical that there's a mythical class of people out there who are either so brilliant or so far gone that useful information (whatever the source) can't help them. Actually, I guess it depends what you mean by self-help: I enjoyed "Getting Things Done" and "Crush It!"...do those count?
  - eru 16y ago
    Yes, they do. See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-help_books http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-help_books for somebody agreeing with that.
scythe 16y ago
Health is a much more long-term thing than 6-8 weeks. I'd wait at least a year to pass judgement on any health proposal, unless it's clearly not working, and if you can't keep it up for a year, well...
T_S_ 16y ago
Straw man? No. Satire, and freaking hilarious at that. Tim F. doesn't need HNers to help him get across. He knows his game. It's about attention, not reaction or judgement. This is attention at its most attentive.
noonespecial 16y ago
I think it might be the vague sense of uneasiness generated not by the fact that his books don't work, but by the fact that his books don't work as well as he does promoting them. Salesman first, maker second. That's backwards in these here parts.

klbarry 16y ago

It reminds me of the criticisms of Guy Kawasaki (of Rich Dad, Poor Dad fame). He gives mostly excellent advice, but markets it to the lowest common denominator so a lot of smart people turn away. It actually shows something about the HN crowd. We're actually susceptible to marketing; the stuff we value is stuff that doesn't look like 4 hour workweek, even if it might work better. EDIT: It's actually Robert Kiyosaki, how embarassing.

apalmblad 16y ago
Didn't you mean Robert Kiyosaki? I'm not sure how Kawasaki is attached to Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
patrickgzill 16y ago
Guy Kawasaki is an early Apple employee who wrote the book "The Macintosh Way" among others. Roert Kiyosaki wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kiyosaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kiyosaki
AlexC04 16y ago
I also really liked Rich Dad, Poor Dad. :)
rikthevik 16y ago
Woah. Guy Kawasaki was chief evangelist at Apple. Robert Kiyosaki is the hack who wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad, a book that advocates highly risky real estate maneuvers and multi-level marketing. His books are endorsed by the newest incarnation of Amway.
- salemh 16y ago
  http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html "A number of people asked me about Robert T. Kiyosaki and his book Rich Dad, Poor Dad. When I said I didn’t think he was a real-estate guru, they insisted he was. Several told me I would like him, that he preaches a message like mine. Eager to find such a guru, I bought his book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, in a bookstore. Summary Rich Dad, Poor Dad is one of the dumbest financial advice books I have ever read. It contains many factual errors and numerous extremely unlikely accounts of events that supposedly occurred. Kiyosaki is a salesman and a motivational speaker. He has no financial expertise and won’t disclose his supposed real estate or other investment success. Rich Dad, Poor Dad contains much wrong advice, much bad advice, some dangerous advice, and virtually no good advice."
- klbarry 16y ago
  He doesn't advocate the real estate maneuvers particularly, he just uses it as an example of an asset that can be built using leverage. He gives MLM literally two sentences, as an example of something that can bring recurring income (however misguided he may be). You have to admit the description of assets and liabilities (85% of the book) is spot on and excellent advice for many people. Look at any Indian immigrant with taxi medallions or franchises.
jamesbressi 16y ago
+1 for making my brow bend and then laugh out loud when you corrected yourself and ended with "how embarrassing". I really needed that today, hope you don't mind it was at your expense--so I gave some karma your way. I was just in a miserable mood and relief came in an unexpected place. Cheers! (sorry this is off topic to the rest)
jarin 16y ago
I tell you what, despite the lack of any actionable information whatsoever, Rich Dad, Poor Dad was what inspired me to go into business for myself. Four Hour Work Week (despite not having THAT much actionable information for me) was the book that inspired me to stay in business for myself when times got tough. Maybe Four Hour Body will be the book that inspires me to not be fat, who knows.

mberning 16y ago

I think this is just poking some lighthearted fun at Tim. I've lost about 35 lbs on the slow carb diet, so yes, that part of the book works for me. Other parts seem more dubious, but it does give you plenty to think about/research.

ryanwaggoner 16y ago
Actually, the post didn't bother me as much as the comments here on HN. The knee-jerk reactions that many HN'ers have towards Tim and his books are as bad as the naive gullibility they think they're rejecting. Neither require any kind of critical thinking or logical analysis.
- beagle3 16y ago
  If I could upvote you more than once, I would.

smallegan 16y ago

Haters Gonna Hate, I love both books and have gotten plenty of great info and inspiration from them. And if nothing else I've enjoyed picking up on some great marketing tactics that he uses that obviously are working :-P

simonpreed 16y ago

No I found it very useful, i've lost a significant amount of weight and feel a lot better. I do wonder why HN readers seem to dislike Tim's books so much.

jlees 16y ago
It's not so much his books, it's him. On the surface he's the ideal HN idol; A/B tests and measures everything, scientific approach to life. But on the flipside he is wildly successful and has intimate relations with members of the opposite sex. Who wouldn't hate him? ;)

kmfrk 16y ago

How is this a straw man attack?

klochner 16y ago
It would be a straw man attack if the author had proceeded to logically refute his own satire and claim it was a refutation of Tim's methods. Note: the above would have to be done without breaking a smile.
- chc 16y ago
  Or it would be that the satire is meant to reflect Tim's methods and the ridiculousness is meant as a refutation (in much the same way that "A Modest Proposal" was meant as a criticism of Britain's callousness — satire is generally a form of criticism).

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

DanielBMarkham 16y ago

You know, it's possible to admire Tim and his work and still feel that the general style, this entire genre of books has jumped the shark. Taken like that, it's not an attack, just some gentle ribbing. And it's not even directed at Tim per really -- it's the rest of us who eagerly buy into such over the top nonsense that's really being made fun of. (I haven't read the book or know from Tim. But I'm very familiar with this style of writing. In my 20s I bought all sorts of these books and tapes, so this style has been around for a long time)

jlees 16y ago
What I found interesting was that he tested a ton of titles for the book and the "4-Hour" thing was the winner - it's not him that chose it, it's the market.
- Tichy 16y ago
  Why not let the market write the rest of the book, too? No problem with a little bit of A-Z-Testing.
  - jsackmann 16y ago
    In a sense, that's what an active blogger does before going blog-to-book. True, the author is the one putting the sentences together, but the market has a lot of say in the direction future articles go, and what of the blog content goes into the book version.
  - michaelbuckbee 16y ago
    This was actually a Family Guy episode. Brian wrote a million selling self help book that was 1/3 blank where you were supposed to list your hopes and dreams.
- wyclif 16y ago
  Here's my fave commentary on the Ferriss snake-oil schtick: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/01/08/5-time-management-tricks-i-learned-from-years-of-hating-tim-ferriss/ http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/01/08/5-time-management-t...

c0nsilience 16y ago

Nice try, Tim Ferris.

AlexC04 16y ago

I got a LOT out of 4HWW, I haven't quit my job and gone freelancing yet - but now that you mention it, it sounds like a good idea. 4HB I can say that I don't feel like I've gotten anything of value from it. I felt really disappointed and let down by it. I also felt like some of the advice in there was so wrong it bordered on being dangerous. Tim Ferris is highly controversial on HN. He's got a lot of supporters and a lot of detractors on here. I've been both. As for the 4-Hour dentist, I think that it was really funny. Actually laughed.

vertr 16y ago

The top of the article says "humor." This is satire. Satire can use whatever kind of attack it wants to get it's point across.

jonathanjaeger 16y ago

It's unfortunate that he has to use techniques like gain 28lbs of muscle in four weeks (or similar hype) to sell books. Clearly that's manipulation because even if he gained that many pounds in a month, he definitely didn't gain that much muscle. He's stretching words more so with 4HB than with 4HWW. HOWEVER, he has data to back up a lot of his claims and a lot of the tips he gives are great. So if it takes some of these techniques to sell, maybe it's worth it. His books are a lot more substantial than other self-help books.

Luc 16y ago

Looking at your blog http://ryanwaggoner.com/ http://ryanwaggoner.com/ , I can see why you would come to his defence. You're obviously very much into self-help books. That stuff doesn't work for everyone.

ryanwaggoner 16y ago
That didn't take long. I'm actually NOT very much into self-help books. I can count on both hands the number I've read, and on one hand the number I've enjoyed. But I do think that there are a few that are valuable. And I'm quite skeptical that there's a mythical class of people out there who are either so brilliant or so far gone that useful information (whatever the source) can't help them. Actually, I guess it depends what you mean by self-help: I enjoyed "Getting Things Done" and "Crush It!"...do those count?
- eru 16y ago
  Yes, they do. See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-help_books http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-help_books for somebody agreeing with that.

scythe 16y ago

Health is a much more long-term thing than 6-8 weeks. I'd wait at least a year to pass judgement on any health proposal, unless it's clearly not working, and if you can't keep it up for a year, well...

T_S_ 16y ago

Straw man? No. Satire, and freaking hilarious at that. Tim F. doesn't need HNers to help him get across. He knows his game. It's about attention, not reaction or judgement. This is attention at its most attentive.

noonespecial 16y ago

I think it might be the vague sense of uneasiness generated not by the fact that his books don't work, but by the fact that his books don't work as well as he does promoting them. Salesman first, maker second. That's backwards in these here parts.