5 ms·

Yang's implementation is very regressive. You have the regressive VAT tax, but then you also have the fact that you are cutting government benefits then giving

Yang's implementation is very regressive. You have the regressive VAT tax, but then you also have the fact that you are cutting government benefits then giving everyone $1000. So the poor just end up net poorer. Example: Now: $12,000 a year + $12,000 in benefits = $24,000 $50,000 a year + $0 in benefits = $50,000 UBI: $12,000 a year + $12,000 in UBI = $24,000 $50,000 a year + $12,000 in UBI = $62,000 The poorer person receiving benefits is actually poorer then before, relatively. Someone let me know if I'm missing something.

hisnameismanuel 7y ago
Yep - the key thing you're missing is that Yang is going to allow people to choose whether they want to keep their benefits or switch to UBI.
- Miner49er 7y ago
  How does that change my point though? Either way they end up net poorer. If you're poor and don't take the $1000, you are the same and everyone else is $1000 richer. This makes you effectively $1000 poorer. Yang actually says UBI will save money compared to benefits. So if you pick UBI you're even more than $1000 poorer, if he's right.
  - matz1 7y ago
    >If you're poor and don't take the $1000, you are the same and everyone else is $1000 richer. This makes you effectively $1000 poorer $1000 poorer relative to other person but not actually poorer in terms of my purchasing power.
    - jonnycoder 7y ago
      What do you think purchasing power for common goods will do once millions of people are on UBI? My bet is that prices will go up.
      - matz1 7y ago
        Could be stay the same or even go down. Producer still have to compete with each other and they even might lower their price to entice buyer to spend their UBI.
        cameronbrown 7y ago
        I doubt it.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    There is no particular reason to believe that increases in costs would exactly match the benefits granted leaving you 1000 dollars poorer even if ssdi income was better than ubi. Furthermore ubi would not be negatively effected by a spouse earning money in a way that actually punishes families for working nor would it require suing the government for 5-10 years while they pretend your family member isn't disabled. On net the only people who come off worse are unmarried individuals receiving ssdi who are too young for social security retirement income. Average ssdi income is around 1200 10 million people are on ssdi aprox 6 million under 65 45% in the overall US population are unmarried. One could reasonably suppose at least 2-3 million out of 327 million will make no more money and will see slightly to somewhat higher costs. This could be corrected by cola. In comparison the bottom 25% is 82 million strong and will benefit substantially as will the next quartile to a lesser extent another 82 millions
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
matz1 7y ago
$12,000 of benefits does not equal to $12,000 of UBI. UBI doesn't limit you on what you want to buy. UBI doesn't require paperwork or lengthy approval process. UBI doesn't go away as you make more money.
analyst74 7y ago
You picked a perfect example where it seems bad, but consider an opposite one: Now: $12,000 a year + $12,000 in benefits = $24,000 $24,000 a year + $0 in benefits = $24,000 $50,000 a year + $0 in benefits = $50,000 UBI: $12,000 a year + $12,000 in UBI = $24,000 $24,000 a year + $12,000 in benefits = $36,000 $50,000 a year + $12,000 in UBI = $62,000 Also keep in mind that the more well off people will end up paying more VAT because they spend more. VAT can also be tweaked to not tax on necessities like basic groceries/etc.
dba7dba 7y ago
Your assumption is that Govt benefit starts coming your way the moment you need or ask for it. From limited personal experience AND from what I read, applying for and getting any kind of government benefit is very time labor intensive and involves long waits. And many don't get it because they don't meet a threshold. And those who get it, have to not work (aka not make money), in order to keep getting it.
ameister14 7y ago
You're missing a couple of things - first, it isn't zero sum. I don't care if I'm poor relatively as long as I'm not poor absolutely. Second, the average benefit isn't $1,000 a month and in almost all cases the $1k per month is an increase on existing benefit numbers. Third, since it doesn't come with strings, you don't have to worry about losing your benefits when you get a job or a kid leaves the home, when you relapse or when you get sick and can't manage the tangled web of government red tape.
- tartoran 7y ago
  Or you can simply move somewhere else where life is cheaper, a place that nowadays isn't sustainable because currently the local job market is nonexistent. UBI can solve that!
- jfk13 7y ago
  > I don't care if I'm poor relatively as long as I'm not poor absolutely. This might be true for you personally, but it is not true in general; whether people are dissatisfied with their level of wealth/poverty has a great deal to do with how it compares to others.
  - iamvfl 7y ago
    We're not talking about dissatisfaction here. We're talking about meeting basic needs like food, housing, and health services. Wanting to be satisfied of these things is absolutely true in general.
    - jfk13 7y ago
      > meeting basic needs like food It's perfectly possible to get by with rice and lentils and a few vegetables, and if that's the common lifestyle of everyone in the community/country, many people are well satisfied with it. I've lived in such places. But if you see the people around you enjoying an endless variety of steak and sushi and lobster and so on, and you're working all hours yet still only able to stretch to rice & lentils, your satisfaction may be less. An illogical reaction? Maybe. A human one? I think so.
lukifer 7y ago
Many currently receiving benefits might gladly give them up in exchange for $1k/mo, cash in hand, with no risk of losing benefits due to higher income or filling out a form incorrectly. But even if not, I think there's a case that giving everyone else UBI has ancillary benefits: - More cash in the hand of your neighbors means more customers, which means more economic activity, which potentially means better employment prospects, in a virtuous cycle [0]. - Strain on existing benefit-granting institutions is greatly reduced, as those who opt for cash exit the system, meaning faster response times and more assistance with forms/approvals/etc. - The working class tend to be more economically interdependent by necessity; someone who declines UBI still comes ahead from a spouse, relative, grown child, etc. who requires less economic support. - Yang has spoken at length about the effects of economic anxiety; even someone who declines UBI may experience less anxiety (and therefore greater executive function and capacity for long-term planning), simply from knowing they have a "Plan B" for basic necessities. In addition to offsetting costs, I think one of the motivations for the "either/or" strategy is political viability with libertarians and moderate Republicans, whose exaggerated fears of "socialism" can be assuaged by the opportunity to shrink bloated federal bureaucracies. (I'm somewhat sympathetic here: the most efficient charity is usually to write a check to the poor [1], and I suspect UBI or negative income tax has greater efficacy than most means-tested federal programs, with possibly the exception of health care.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand-side_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand-side_economics [1] https://www.givewell.org/charities/give-directly https://www.givewell.org/charities/give-directly

hisnameismanuel 7y ago

Yep - the key thing you're missing is that Yang is going to allow people to choose whether they want to keep their benefits or switch to UBI.

Miner49er 7y ago
How does that change my point though? Either way they end up net poorer. If you're poor and don't take the $1000, you are the same and everyone else is $1000 richer. This makes you effectively $1000 poorer. Yang actually says UBI will save money compared to benefits. So if you pick UBI you're even more than $1000 poorer, if he's right.
- matz1 7y ago
  >If you're poor and don't take the $1000, you are the same and everyone else is $1000 richer. This makes you effectively $1000 poorer $1000 poorer relative to other person but not actually poorer in terms of my purchasing power.
  - jonnycoder 7y ago
    What do you think purchasing power for common goods will do once millions of people are on UBI? My bet is that prices will go up.
    - matz1 7y ago
      Could be stay the same or even go down. Producer still have to compete with each other and they even might lower their price to entice buyer to spend their UBI.
      - cameronbrown 7y ago
        I doubt it.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  There is no particular reason to believe that increases in costs would exactly match the benefits granted leaving you 1000 dollars poorer even if ssdi income was better than ubi. Furthermore ubi would not be negatively effected by a spouse earning money in a way that actually punishes families for working nor would it require suing the government for 5-10 years while they pretend your family member isn't disabled. On net the only people who come off worse are unmarried individuals receiving ssdi who are too young for social security retirement income. Average ssdi income is around 1200 10 million people are on ssdi aprox 6 million under 65 45% in the overall US population are unmarried. One could reasonably suppose at least 2-3 million out of 327 million will make no more money and will see slightly to somewhat higher costs. This could be corrected by cola. In comparison the bottom 25% is 82 million strong and will benefit substantially as will the next quartile to a lesser extent another 82 millions
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

matz1 7y ago

$12,000 of benefits does not equal to $12,000 of UBI. UBI doesn't limit you on what you want to buy. UBI doesn't require paperwork or lengthy approval process. UBI doesn't go away as you make more money.

analyst74 7y ago

You picked a perfect example where it seems bad, but consider an opposite one: Now: $12,000 a year + $12,000 in benefits = $24,000 $24,000 a year + $0 in benefits = $24,000 $50,000 a year + $0 in benefits = $50,000 UBI: $12,000 a year + $12,000 in UBI = $24,000 $24,000 a year + $12,000 in benefits = $36,000 $50,000 a year + $12,000 in UBI = $62,000 Also keep in mind that the more well off people will end up paying more VAT because they spend more. VAT can also be tweaked to not tax on necessities like basic groceries/etc.

dba7dba 7y ago

Your assumption is that Govt benefit starts coming your way the moment you need or ask for it. From limited personal experience AND from what I read, applying for and getting any kind of government benefit is very time labor intensive and involves long waits. And many don't get it because they don't meet a threshold. And those who get it, have to not work (aka not make money), in order to keep getting it.

ameister14 7y ago

You're missing a couple of things - first, it isn't zero sum. I don't care if I'm poor relatively as long as I'm not poor absolutely. Second, the average benefit isn't $1,000 a month and in almost all cases the $1k per month is an increase on existing benefit numbers. Third, since it doesn't come with strings, you don't have to worry about losing your benefits when you get a job or a kid leaves the home, when you relapse or when you get sick and can't manage the tangled web of government red tape.

tartoran 7y ago
Or you can simply move somewhere else where life is cheaper, a place that nowadays isn't sustainable because currently the local job market is nonexistent. UBI can solve that!
jfk13 7y ago
> I don't care if I'm poor relatively as long as I'm not poor absolutely. This might be true for you personally, but it is not true in general; whether people are dissatisfied with their level of wealth/poverty has a great deal to do with how it compares to others.
- iamvfl 7y ago
  We're not talking about dissatisfaction here. We're talking about meeting basic needs like food, housing, and health services. Wanting to be satisfied of these things is absolutely true in general.
  - jfk13 7y ago
    > meeting basic needs like food It's perfectly possible to get by with rice and lentils and a few vegetables, and if that's the common lifestyle of everyone in the community/country, many people are well satisfied with it. I've lived in such places. But if you see the people around you enjoying an endless variety of steak and sushi and lobster and so on, and you're working all hours yet still only able to stretch to rice & lentils, your satisfaction may be less. An illogical reaction? Maybe. A human one? I think so.

lukifer 7y ago

Many currently receiving benefits might gladly give them up in exchange for $1k/mo, cash in hand, with no risk of losing benefits due to higher income or filling out a form incorrectly. But even if not, I think there's a case that giving everyone else UBI has ancillary benefits: - More cash in the hand of your neighbors means more customers, which means more economic activity, which potentially means better employment prospects, in a virtuous cycle [0]. - Strain on existing benefit-granting institutions is greatly reduced, as those who opt for cash exit the system, meaning faster response times and more assistance with forms/approvals/etc. - The working class tend to be more economically interdependent by necessity; someone who declines UBI still comes ahead from a spouse, relative, grown child, etc. who requires less economic support. - Yang has spoken at length about the effects of economic anxiety; even someone who declines UBI may experience less anxiety (and therefore greater executive function and capacity for long-term planning), simply from knowing they have a "Plan B" for basic necessities. In addition to offsetting costs, I think one of the motivations for the "either/or" strategy is political viability with libertarians and moderate Republicans, whose exaggerated fears of "socialism" can be assuaged by the opportunity to shrink bloated federal bureaucracies. (I'm somewhat sympathetic here: the most efficient charity is usually to write a check to the poor [1], and I suspect UBI or negative income tax has greater efficacy than most means-tested federal programs, with possibly the exception of health care.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand-side_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand-side_economics [1] https://www.givewell.org/charities/give-directly https://www.givewell.org/charities/give-directly