6 ms·

Wow, this version is $1,999, and if you've pre-ordered you can upgrade to the US-produced model for an extra $1,300. Does this pricing accurately reflect the i

Wow, this version is $1,999, and if you've pre-ordered you can upgrade to the US-produced model for an extra $1,300. Does this pricing accurately reflect the increased cost of producing everything but the chassis in the US?

newnewpdro 7y ago
No, this is a desperate attempt to raise money.
- alfalfasprout 7y ago
  Sure, but there is a significant increase in costs to produce everything in the US. I've been shocked by how certain production processes are simply super difficult to find in the US. Even things as simple as injection molding can cost 2-3x as much. Add on shipping costs, etc. within the US and you can easily add several hundred dollars or more to the cost of this product. That's especially true given the low volume.
  - computerex 7y ago
    Be that as it may, with the problems purism has been having in developing this phone this announcement points to a desperate attempt at getting cash. https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-1 https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri... https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-2 https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri... https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-3 https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
    - newnewpdro 7y ago
      Right, it's obvious, $2k per sucker for something they don't have to make until Q3 2020. Sounds like an interest-free loan to me. I suspect they don't have the cash on hand for manufacturing the pending existing librem 5 orders, which unless I'm mistaken requires some redesign work to fix the thermal issues.
- lostgame 7y ago
  Pricing something this high is not a way to make money. Even at 3/4 of this ludicrous price I bet they would sell far more units.
johnnycarcin 7y ago
While I love the idea, that price is totally insane. I don't see how anyone would be willing to pay that much for what is essentially a beta device. It seems that it is quite difficult to manufacture these devices, at a reasonable cost, without help from the big names :(
- detaro 7y ago
  On the other hand, many people probably think the same about the "standard" Librem 5 price. The people getting them already do so because they want the idea to have a chance, not because they're cheap or directly good value for money. Some might say "it's double than what I'd spend on an Android, but that's worth it" about the normal price, wouldn't be surprised if for others the reference frame is "2x iPhone" instead.
hwbehrens 7y ago
There are probably several factors at play here. First, not all of the parts are necessarily produced in the USA - the PCBA is produced there, and the parts are assembled there, but the parts themselves are likely procured elsewhere. Even still, this greatly complicates the kind of supply chain attack this is meant to prevent, because you have to compromise individual components that you hope will end up in the device you're targeting. Second, they already had these facilities in place in the US for prototyping purposes. Thus, the up-front cost investment for setting up a facility in the US is much lower than usual, so they can set a lower price than others might be able to offer. Third, there is probably a capacity constraint at that facility; the price chosen was likely selected to suppress demand below that threshold, not purely based on relative production cost. Finally, although I have only limited experience (n=2) with cross-shopping electronics manufacturing between the US and China, a 3x overhead is actually substantially lower than I would expect; we were seeing ~6-10x increases for manufacturing and assembly. This could be because their production facility (which, again, already exists) would otherwise be sitting idle. I can't speak to the health of their business (a sibling comment suggested this was a "money grab"), but the numbers seem pretty reasonable for what you're getting, overall. Note that this is not targeting the same crowd who buys "Made in USA" t-shirts to support the local economy; the audience is more likely to be security wonks who are already concerned about supply chain attacks.
- unlinked_dll 7y ago
  >a 3x overhead is actually substantially lower than I would expect; we were seeing ~6-10x increases for manufacturing and assembly How many units were you building/shipping? And was your QA on-site/in-country?
- bluGill 7y ago
  I think the real target is - or should be - CIA, and NSA. People who have security needs that China will never agree to. The hardware switches help play into their needs: shut the chips off in situations where they are a concern. Pursim should have a standing offer: we will make your phone on a day scheduled well in advance and allow your auditors in the factory to watch over the process. At an extra cost of course, but I think this is something they could offer easily enough and it would be very helpful to those most paranoid about security. Dealing with government contracts isn't easy though.
unlinked_dll 7y ago
No, it reflects the price of low volume manufacturing.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  Low volume is a constant across their existing offering and this "made in usa" offering, which if you've been following the librem 5 story at all you'd already know is unnecessarily overpriced. There's no need for them to limit demand of the USA model with a higher price, the demand for this phone is very low in general considering it's not even usable as a phone. Edit: "Librems are heavily overpriced but that is because Purism seemingly never tried to get better deal and the South San Francisco partner abused this so that is why Purism Librems are double the price they should be." - Zlatan Todoric former Purism CTO [0] [0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-Todoric-Interview https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...
swebs 7y ago
I seriously doubt it. It's most likely to maximize margins from their first few low volume supply runs as they begin to scale up.
jammygit 7y ago
Having just come from seeing Black Friday sales: is it actually 2k, or is it “2k” with regular sales making it the actual price (which we will see before Christmas)?

newnewpdro 7y ago

No, this is a desperate attempt to raise money.

alfalfasprout 7y ago
Sure, but there is a significant increase in costs to produce everything in the US. I've been shocked by how certain production processes are simply super difficult to find in the US. Even things as simple as injection molding can cost 2-3x as much. Add on shipping costs, etc. within the US and you can easily add several hundred dollars or more to the cost of this product. That's especially true given the low volume.
- computerex 7y ago
  Be that as it may, with the problems purism has been having in developing this phone this announcement points to a desperate attempt at getting cash. https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-1 https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri... https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-2 https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri... https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-purism-and-the-librem-5-part-3 https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
  - newnewpdro 7y ago
    Right, it's obvious, $2k per sucker for something they don't have to make until Q3 2020. Sounds like an interest-free loan to me. I suspect they don't have the cash on hand for manufacturing the pending existing librem 5 orders, which unless I'm mistaken requires some redesign work to fix the thermal issues.
lostgame 7y ago
Pricing something this high is not a way to make money. Even at 3/4 of this ludicrous price I bet they would sell far more units.

johnnycarcin 7y ago

While I love the idea, that price is totally insane. I don't see how anyone would be willing to pay that much for what is essentially a beta device. It seems that it is quite difficult to manufacture these devices, at a reasonable cost, without help from the big names :(

detaro 7y ago
On the other hand, many people probably think the same about the "standard" Librem 5 price. The people getting them already do so because they want the idea to have a chance, not because they're cheap or directly good value for money. Some might say "it's double than what I'd spend on an Android, but that's worth it" about the normal price, wouldn't be surprised if for others the reference frame is "2x iPhone" instead.

hwbehrens 7y ago

There are probably several factors at play here. First, not all of the parts are necessarily produced in the USA - the PCBA is produced there, and the parts are assembled there, but the parts themselves are likely procured elsewhere. Even still, this greatly complicates the kind of supply chain attack this is meant to prevent, because you have to compromise individual components that you hope will end up in the device you're targeting. Second, they already had these facilities in place in the US for prototyping purposes. Thus, the up-front cost investment for setting up a facility in the US is much lower than usual, so they can set a lower price than others might be able to offer. Third, there is probably a capacity constraint at that facility; the price chosen was likely selected to suppress demand below that threshold, not purely based on relative production cost. Finally, although I have only limited experience (n=2) with cross-shopping electronics manufacturing between the US and China, a 3x overhead is actually substantially lower than I would expect; we were seeing ~6-10x increases for manufacturing and assembly. This could be because their production facility (which, again, already exists) would otherwise be sitting idle. I can't speak to the health of their business (a sibling comment suggested this was a "money grab"), but the numbers seem pretty reasonable for what you're getting, overall. Note that this is not targeting the same crowd who buys "Made in USA" t-shirts to support the local economy; the audience is more likely to be security wonks who are already concerned about supply chain attacks.

unlinked_dll 7y ago
>a 3x overhead is actually substantially lower than I would expect; we were seeing ~6-10x increases for manufacturing and assembly How many units were you building/shipping? And was your QA on-site/in-country?
bluGill 7y ago
I think the real target is - or should be - CIA, and NSA. People who have security needs that China will never agree to. The hardware switches help play into their needs: shut the chips off in situations where they are a concern. Pursim should have a standing offer: we will make your phone on a day scheduled well in advance and allow your auditors in the factory to watch over the process. At an extra cost of course, but I think this is something they could offer easily enough and it would be very helpful to those most paranoid about security. Dealing with government contracts isn't easy though.

unlinked_dll 7y ago

No, it reflects the price of low volume manufacturing.

newnewpdro 7y ago
Low volume is a constant across their existing offering and this "made in usa" offering, which if you've been following the librem 5 story at all you'd already know is unnecessarily overpriced. There's no need for them to limit demand of the USA model with a higher price, the demand for this phone is very low in general considering it's not even usable as a phone. Edit: "Librems are heavily overpriced but that is because Purism seemingly never tried to get better deal and the South San Francisco partner abused this so that is why Purism Librems are double the price they should be." - Zlatan Todoric former Purism CTO [0] [0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-Todoric-Interview https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...

swebs 7y ago

I seriously doubt it. It's most likely to maximize margins from their first few low volume supply runs as they begin to scale up.

jammygit 7y ago

Having just come from seeing Black Friday sales: is it actually 2k, or is it “2k” with regular sales making it the actual price (which we will see before Christmas)?