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This audio segment from The Intercept is highly relevant and illustrative of how this all came to be. My favorite sound bites are "In one e-mail with the subje

This audio segment from The Intercept is highly relevant and illustrative of how this all came to be. My favorite sound bites are "In one e-mail with the subject 'Torture Update'", and "We will not be briefing the president on this". At one point, the CIA and Senate had mutually filed criminal prosecution referrals against one another over the cover up. https://theintercept.com/2019/12/04/george-bush-barack-obama-and-the-cia-torture-cover-up/ https://theintercept.com/2019/12/04/george-bush-barack-obama...

tehjoker 7y ago
Somehow that was even more disturbing than the president orchestrating it. It indicates that the CIA is a rogue* agency that is insulated enough from the political system that it can basically do what it wants, and what it wants is rooted in base aggression devoid of even evidence based approaches (their own data showed torture didn't work). If the president doesn't know, doesn't authorize programs that are this controversial, it means they are a decoration and the political system is a sham. * rogue meaning autonomous from political control, not necessarily that it is doing anything to contradict the imperatives of the empire.
- ouid 7y ago
  rouge meaning the powder you apply over foundation that makes it red.
  - tehjoker 7y ago
    One day I will learn to spell. Thank you.
    - ouid 7y ago
      Rogue is probably the most commonly misspelled 5 letter word, thanks to World of Warcraft.
  - rebuilder 7y ago
    I suppose, when one lacks the integrity to even blush, one fakes it.
- ryacko 7y ago
  I don't even know how Alfreda Frances Bikowsky still has a job . To quote The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How The War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals: … was reviled by some male colleagues for what they described as her aggression. … Coworkers said she had no reason to be present during {Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s} interrogation. She was not an interrogator. “She thought it would be cool to be in the room” a former colleague said. But ironically her presence during Mohammed’s ordeal, sources said, seemed to anger and strengthen his resolve, helping him to hold out longer against the harsh tactics used against him.
  - AndrewBissell 7y ago
    Gina Haspel was made the Director of the CIA, and she was instrumental in the torture program.
    - ryacko 7y ago
      I don't know her, and I'm not inclined to acknowledge her importance in being able to decide anything of value. Edit: I also doubt how instrumental anyone can be in torture beyond the implements.
      - tehjoker 7y ago
        Haspel was present at one of the key extraordinary rendition black-sites in Thailand and was involved in the extralegal destruction of the video evidence.
        ryacko 7y ago
        It can't be extralegal if she wasn't prosecuted for it. I think she is just a very tiny cog in a very big machine, a figurehead to throw under the bus if something goes wrong. She is no more responsible for torture than a janitor who may have also been present.
        tehjoker 7y ago
- AndrewBissell 7y ago
  At this point the CIA is really best viewed as an organized crime syndicate with the blessing of the government and ruling class. The other thing to help understand the situation is that due to Epstein-style kompromat it possesses on that ruling class, the CIA sits above the POTUS in the US power structure.
  - tehjoker 7y ago
    It is alleged that the CIA was involved with Epstein. At the very least, the guy that got him his job teaching at Dalton, Donald Barr, [0] was ex-OSS, and the father of William Barr, ex-CIA [1] and the current Attorney General. [0] https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/the-epstein-barr-problem-of-new-york-citys-dalton-school/ https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/the-epstein-barr-proble... [1] https://www.foxnews.com/politics/who-is-william-barr-5-things-to-know-about-the-attorney-general https://www.foxnews.com/politics/who-is-william-barr-5-thing...
  - turk73 7y ago
    We are paying for our own tyranny. It's time to stop.
  - EncryptEntropy 7y ago
    The CIA has always been ran this way since inception. The CIA was assassinating civilian factory managers in Vietnam. The CIA protects and sells heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine, poppy fields for black budget pools of money, and the CIA absolutely creates false flag setups and nearly works with impunity. Plus, forgot to even mention MKULTRA and all the gun running for black money. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_co... “For the better part of a decade, a San Francisco Bay Area drug ring sold tons of cocaine to the Crips and Bloods street gangs of Los Angeles and funneled millions in drug profits to a Latin American guerrilla army run by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency. [This drug ring] opened the first pipeline between Colombia's cocaine cartels and the black neighborhoods of Los Angeles [and, as a result,] the cocaine that flooded in helped spark a crack explosion in urban America.[12]“ This implying a link to Pablo Escobar and CIA. Also speculated but id have to dig for evidence that the CIA possibly directly introduced heroin from it’s start into central drug areas kingpins. don’t have time to grab more links, it’s all out there like an open secret.
- lordgrenville 7y ago
  There are multiple incidents like this in Tim Weiner's opinionated history of the CIA Legacy of Ashes. It's not exactly a neutral presentation of the facts, but it's based on extensive research and newly declassified data, and to my knowledge no-one has disputed any of his facts. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/970488.Legacy_of_Ashes https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/970488.Legacy_of_Ashes
- bb88 7y ago
  If you only diagnose livestock from the mouth and don't bother to lift the tail to see what's coming out the backside because its too odious, then yeah, the expected outcome is going to be bad. So I don't buy that the CIA was rogue. I just think they had don't ask/don't tell approval from Bush/Cheney during this time. IOW: "I won't ask what you're doing as long as you don't tell anyone."

tehjoker 7y ago

Somehow that was even more disturbing than the president orchestrating it. It indicates that the CIA is a rogue* agency that is insulated enough from the political system that it can basically do what it wants, and what it wants is rooted in base aggression devoid of even evidence based approaches (their own data showed torture didn't work). If the president doesn't know, doesn't authorize programs that are this controversial, it means they are a decoration and the political system is a sham. * rogue meaning autonomous from political control, not necessarily that it is doing anything to contradict the imperatives of the empire.

ouid 7y ago
rouge meaning the powder you apply over foundation that makes it red.
- tehjoker 7y ago
  One day I will learn to spell. Thank you.
  - ouid 7y ago
    Rogue is probably the most commonly misspelled 5 letter word, thanks to World of Warcraft.
- rebuilder 7y ago
  I suppose, when one lacks the integrity to even blush, one fakes it.
ryacko 7y ago
I don't even know how Alfreda Frances Bikowsky still has a job . To quote The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How The War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals: … was reviled by some male colleagues for what they described as her aggression. … Coworkers said she had no reason to be present during {Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s} interrogation. She was not an interrogator. “She thought it would be cool to be in the room” a former colleague said. But ironically her presence during Mohammed’s ordeal, sources said, seemed to anger and strengthen his resolve, helping him to hold out longer against the harsh tactics used against him.
- AndrewBissell 7y ago
  Gina Haspel was made the Director of the CIA, and she was instrumental in the torture program.
  - ryacko 7y ago
    I don't know her, and I'm not inclined to acknowledge her importance in being able to decide anything of value. Edit: I also doubt how instrumental anyone can be in torture beyond the implements.
    - tehjoker 7y ago
      Haspel was present at one of the key extraordinary rendition black-sites in Thailand and was involved in the extralegal destruction of the video evidence.
      - ryacko 7y ago
        It can't be extralegal if she wasn't prosecuted for it. I think she is just a very tiny cog in a very big machine, a figurehead to throw under the bus if something goes wrong. She is no more responsible for torture than a janitor who may have also been present.
        tehjoker 7y ago
AndrewBissell 7y ago
At this point the CIA is really best viewed as an organized crime syndicate with the blessing of the government and ruling class. The other thing to help understand the situation is that due to Epstein-style kompromat it possesses on that ruling class, the CIA sits above the POTUS in the US power structure.
- tehjoker 7y ago
  It is alleged that the CIA was involved with Epstein. At the very least, the guy that got him his job teaching at Dalton, Donald Barr, [0] was ex-OSS, and the father of William Barr, ex-CIA [1] and the current Attorney General. [0] https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/the-epstein-barr-problem-of-new-york-citys-dalton-school/ https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/the-epstein-barr-proble... [1] https://www.foxnews.com/politics/who-is-william-barr-5-things-to-know-about-the-attorney-general https://www.foxnews.com/politics/who-is-william-barr-5-thing...
- turk73 7y ago
  We are paying for our own tyranny. It's time to stop.
- EncryptEntropy 7y ago
  The CIA has always been ran this way since inception. The CIA was assassinating civilian factory managers in Vietnam. The CIA protects and sells heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine, poppy fields for black budget pools of money, and the CIA absolutely creates false flag setups and nearly works with impunity. Plus, forgot to even mention MKULTRA and all the gun running for black money. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_co... “For the better part of a decade, a San Francisco Bay Area drug ring sold tons of cocaine to the Crips and Bloods street gangs of Los Angeles and funneled millions in drug profits to a Latin American guerrilla army run by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency. [This drug ring] opened the first pipeline between Colombia's cocaine cartels and the black neighborhoods of Los Angeles [and, as a result,] the cocaine that flooded in helped spark a crack explosion in urban America.[12]“ This implying a link to Pablo Escobar and CIA. Also speculated but id have to dig for evidence that the CIA possibly directly introduced heroin from it’s start into central drug areas kingpins. don’t have time to grab more links, it’s all out there like an open secret.
lordgrenville 7y ago
There are multiple incidents like this in Tim Weiner's opinionated history of the CIA Legacy of Ashes. It's not exactly a neutral presentation of the facts, but it's based on extensive research and newly declassified data, and to my knowledge no-one has disputed any of his facts. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/970488.Legacy_of_Ashes https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/970488.Legacy_of_Ashes
bb88 7y ago
If you only diagnose livestock from the mouth and don't bother to lift the tail to see what's coming out the backside because its too odious, then yeah, the expected outcome is going to be bad. So I don't buy that the CIA was rogue. I just think they had don't ask/don't tell approval from Bush/Cheney during this time. IOW: "I won't ask what you're doing as long as you don't tell anyone."