7 ms·

China, perhaps. Russia is in the doldrums. The 'problem' with China is that it's an ethnostate, or wants to be. So in a practical sense most Westerners are b

by ixtis7 7y ago

China, perhaps. Russia is in the doldrums. The 'problem' with China is that it's an ethnostate, or wants to be. So in a practical sense most Westerners are better off fixing their allegiances to the US, for better or worse. At least then you can be part of the apparatus and not pre-emptively sidelined. I like some aspects of China vs. the US too, but China is for the Chinese, as they say.

solarhoma 7y ago
Americans (and Europeans) are very used to the idea that no matter your race or creed you can be just as American as anyone else. We many times forget that not every country in the world acts this way. China being one of them.
- kazagistar 7y ago
  (Just ignore the racism and discussion of "not real americans" and whitewashing of violence of minorities and horrifying concentration camps.)
  - solarhoma 7y ago
    Are you speaking of foreign citizens illegally gaining access to the United States? Which are placed in camps (call them concentration camps if you will but they in no way resemble what China is doing to the Uyghurs, i.e. a true concentration camp). And once in these camps they are processed for asylum, refugee status, etc? Yes, they may be stuck in these ‘horrifying’ camps which is not where they want to be. But they need to be vetted before entry into the US. And consider they are not being brainwashed against their ideals and religion as is happening in China.
    - pengstrom 7y ago
      Just because they're not as bad as China doesn't mean they're not horrendous. I mean, families are separated! How can you defend such a system? The USA is very rich, and has the means to provide a dignified process. I mean, you're a country of mostly immigrant-descendants, right?
      - squiggleblaz 7y ago
        Where are you from, that your hands are lily white? Trying to say that the US is equivalent to China because they both have concentration camps is completely ridiculous. Even the children of illegal immigrants with unpopular religions in the US will have the legal and right to contribute to future US policies. China's treatment of the Uyghur and US treatment of illegal immigrants are both immoral, but they aren't by any means the same.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- JeremyNT 7y ago
  I almost did a spit take there. America's short history includes genocide, enslavement, de facto disenfranchisement, economic discrimination, and/or dramatically unequal jurisprudence levied against basically all non-Europeans. You could say that this is somehow improved since the civil rights movement, and you'd be right, but its legacy as a de-facto patriarchal ethnostate looms large to this day and if this is the beacon of inclusion and harmony that the rest of the world aspires to that's a sorry situation indeed. The US line of "all men are created equal" should have come with a footnote explaining that "some are more equal than others."
- dangerface 7y ago
  Thats nonsense, even if you ignore the past problems we had with race and creed like the genocide of native Americans, enslavement of Africans. Today Americas police and prison system has institutionalised racism. USA has camps they keep Mexicans in and separate their families. China and Russia do these things too I know but that doesn't white wash what we do. > Americans (and Europeans) are very used to the idea that no matter your race or creed you can be just as American as anyone else As long as your race is white and your creed is western. I would say the same thing about china as long as you are Chinese.
kazagistar 7y ago
I'm not sure I see this. They certainly are awful authoritarians and imperialists, but I haven't actually seen the ethnostate facism, or not in excess of what is in the Americas for example. I would say most westerners would be better off not fixing their alliances to any imperialist machine, Russian, Chineese, or American. Even the EU is suspect, but its moderating influence against the worst possible facism still seems to be worth the costs and is worth reforming.
- literallycancer 7y ago
  Ever heard of a place called Xinjiang? Where there is a million people in actual concentration camps, right now?
- ixtis7 7y ago
  Having spent a decent amount of time in China, I think there are definitely a lot of falsehoods that are spread about it, but ethnostate-ish seems a pretty fair conclusion. If you look at the way they're trying to integrate the outer provinces, and even just the way they view day-to-day and business interactions between Chinese and Westerners. A Chinese billionaire in the US is no big deal, a US billionaire in China is unimaginable--they'd consider it out of order and I'd be surprised if it could even happen without them being cut down mid-journey. A contrived example maybe but success is reserved for the Han, not for outsiders.

by ixtis7 7y ago

solarhoma 7y ago

Americans (and Europeans) are very used to the idea that no matter your race or creed you can be just as American as anyone else. We many times forget that not every country in the world acts this way. China being one of them.

kazagistar 7y ago
(Just ignore the racism and discussion of "not real americans" and whitewashing of violence of minorities and horrifying concentration camps.)
- solarhoma 7y ago
  Are you speaking of foreign citizens illegally gaining access to the United States? Which are placed in camps (call them concentration camps if you will but they in no way resemble what China is doing to the Uyghurs, i.e. a true concentration camp). And once in these camps they are processed for asylum, refugee status, etc? Yes, they may be stuck in these ‘horrifying’ camps which is not where they want to be. But they need to be vetted before entry into the US. And consider they are not being brainwashed against their ideals and religion as is happening in China.
  - pengstrom 7y ago
    Just because they're not as bad as China doesn't mean they're not horrendous. I mean, families are separated! How can you defend such a system? The USA is very rich, and has the means to provide a dignified process. I mean, you're a country of mostly immigrant-descendants, right?
    - squiggleblaz 7y ago
      Where are you from, that your hands are lily white? Trying to say that the US is equivalent to China because they both have concentration camps is completely ridiculous. Even the children of illegal immigrants with unpopular religions in the US will have the legal and right to contribute to future US policies. China's treatment of the Uyghur and US treatment of illegal immigrants are both immoral, but they aren't by any means the same.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
JeremyNT 7y ago
I almost did a spit take there. America's short history includes genocide, enslavement, de facto disenfranchisement, economic discrimination, and/or dramatically unequal jurisprudence levied against basically all non-Europeans. You could say that this is somehow improved since the civil rights movement, and you'd be right, but its legacy as a de-facto patriarchal ethnostate looms large to this day and if this is the beacon of inclusion and harmony that the rest of the world aspires to that's a sorry situation indeed. The US line of "all men are created equal" should have come with a footnote explaining that "some are more equal than others."
dangerface 7y ago
Thats nonsense, even if you ignore the past problems we had with race and creed like the genocide of native Americans, enslavement of Africans. Today Americas police and prison system has institutionalised racism. USA has camps they keep Mexicans in and separate their families. China and Russia do these things too I know but that doesn't white wash what we do. > Americans (and Europeans) are very used to the idea that no matter your race or creed you can be just as American as anyone else As long as your race is white and your creed is western. I would say the same thing about china as long as you are Chinese.

kazagistar 7y ago

I'm not sure I see this. They certainly are awful authoritarians and imperialists, but I haven't actually seen the ethnostate facism, or not in excess of what is in the Americas for example. I would say most westerners would be better off not fixing their alliances to any imperialist machine, Russian, Chineese, or American. Even the EU is suspect, but its moderating influence against the worst possible facism still seems to be worth the costs and is worth reforming.

literallycancer 7y ago
Ever heard of a place called Xinjiang? Where there is a million people in actual concentration camps, right now?
ixtis7 7y ago
Having spent a decent amount of time in China, I think there are definitely a lot of falsehoods that are spread about it, but ethnostate-ish seems a pretty fair conclusion. If you look at the way they're trying to integrate the outer provinces, and even just the way they view day-to-day and business interactions between Chinese and Westerners. A Chinese billionaire in the US is no big deal, a US billionaire in China is unimaginable--they'd consider it out of order and I'd be surprised if it could even happen without them being cut down mid-journey. A contrived example maybe but success is reserved for the Han, not for outsiders.