4 ms·

I guess I can just print this out and show to people any time somebody wants to move to k8s.

by StreamBright 7y ago

domlebo70 7y ago
My thoughts exactly. It's too complex for anything I'v ever needed.
- nailer 7y ago
  Well yes, people who already pay for external cloud providers running k8s for little business value is a meme at this point. If you are creating a cloud provider though then you're very much welcome to use k8s.
- q3k 7y ago
  I'm somewhat sure you could make a similarly complicated looking chart that would entail: - using ping - sshing into a box - using ssh port forwarding - using ps aux - understanding system load - understanding oom killer messages - is this systemd? use systemctl, otherwise figure it out - is this systemd? use journalctl, otherwise figure out where an app is logging - is nginx running? what box is it running on? - is the nginx config okay? - what about haproxy? are health checks going through? Plus dealing with whatever configuration management system you're using, credential store you're using, etc. Kubernetes, while complex, does take over a huge chunk of responsibilities from existing deployments. As such, a large part of any debugging will be done via kubectl and on a much different level of abstraction than if you were dealing with individual machines and services deployed on them via Ansible. Yes, there's new things to learn. But for many cases (not even just scale!) it's quite worth it.
  - base698 7y ago
    TBF a lot of people don't know what any of that is and use Heroku or equivalent. I've worked with people who don't even know how to use find or chmod, much less ps, htop, and other system tools.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    Yep, and many of these projects are 10+ years old rock solid code that very rarely breaks and the failure scenarios are well understood (the only real exception is systemd). Can you tell the same about k8s?
- vitalus 7y ago
  I understand that Kubernetes is a complex project, but I struggle to see how this comment adds to the discourse. For those that do need a solution like Kubernetes, charts like this are helpful, and the knowledge requirements certainly aren't too steep relative to comparable platforms. What about Kubernetes makes it especially worth going in and commenting that you don't have a use case for it, in a thread dedicated to Kubernetes? Would you make similar comments about other platforms/libraries/technologies that you, for whatever reason, don't have a use case for?
  - fheyfhth14353 7y ago
    Because echo chambers need their bubble's pierced every so often. Kubernetes is such garbage that no one runs it on their servers and if they do they have an army dedicated to managing it 24/7. Go to any company that's running it and ask them how they feel about it.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    Because many people (including managers) take HN seriously and then go and try to implement or push for this being implemented because they read it on HN. Unfortunately they cannot go to HN when a outage explodes in their face, caused by an unknown problem in k8s. There is no clear value proposition for using k8s. It is trading time to figure out what would make the most sense for a project for black box complexity in most cases and that is a very bad deal. You pay the price once for the first one and all the time for the second one. If I do not comment here then you have a nice echo chamber that all fine and dandy with k8s and there is no downside at all using it. Btw. it is not only k8s and HN supposed to be a discussion site not a fanboy club of broken tech. I understand that the latter is much more appealing to many people.
Kamshak 7y ago
There are for sure a few concepts you need to learn with k8s, however I wonder if it would be much shorter if you did a guide like this for manually done / bash script powered / ansible deployments
- organsnyder 7y ago
  Every other large-ish product I've maintained would have a chart at least this large. Complex systems are complicated to maintain, regardless of platform.
  - base698 7y ago
    You've worked on complex systems with charts? Most places I've worked lack charts and documentation. The flow chart only exists in pieces of the people's heads still working there, the rest in employees who left. That's one of the strengths with K8s, at least there is documentation, unlike a 1000 line perl script with no tests which does service discovery.
    - organsnyder 7y ago
      I said "would have a chart" not "had a chart". :-D Of course it wasn't properly documented. :-( I fully agree on that being a major strength of k8s. Looking at the resource manifests gives a ton of insight into how a system is supposed to function.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  > manually done / bash script powered / ansible deployments Sure but I am not comparing it against manually done / bash script powered / Ansible deployments. Even if I was the CI/CD pipeline would capture many of the problems early and than I have an immutable AMI with autoscaling groups that is very easy to debug, networking setup is super simple and load-balancing is also straightforward to troubleshoot. Cramming all of these into a simple project that is not as easy to debug is not worth the effort for us.
- linsomniac 7y ago
kube-system 7y ago
It’s 11 commands to debug everything about an application deployment... from downloading the docker image all the way to debugging the load balancer. Most git cheat sheets have 3 times the number of commands. Most of the diamonds listed here aren’t things you have to remember, they’re statuses that are explicitly called out in the responses of those commands. This is an over-complicated chart that in reality is summed up as: look at the pod, look at the service, look at ingress.
markbnj 7y ago
> I guess I can just print this out and show to people any time somebody wants to move to k8s. A complete flow chart of all the possible states for any non-trivial thing appears complex. In practice the actual problems you run into are part of a much smaller set of possibilities.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Yeah, but I also happened to run into production problems non of the k8s exports could fix or even pinpoint why it was happening.
fheyfhth14353 7y ago
Only sane response here and being downvoted to Oblivion.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Well HN turned into this place where you cannot have a decent discussion anymore, there is the downvoter crew and if you dare to disagree with them they nuke your comments. Unfortunate.
  - gouggoug 7y ago
    Well, it's not like the GP was trying to create a decent conversation in the first place; it wasn't and that's actually _why_ it's being downvoted.
    - StreamBright 7y ago
      I guess it was too bad that I wanted to point out how bad is the complexity of k8s.
      - asdfggh123 7y ago
        I've stopped caring about anything related to a permanent handle. Say what you need to say with anonymous accounts. Turns out it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
      - madeuppoints 7y ago
        Because the points are made up and comments are a lousy signal of prestige. It's much better to make something and let the work speak for itself.

I guess I can just print this out and show to people any time somebody wants to move to k8s.

domlebo70 7y ago

My thoughts exactly. It's too complex for anything I'v ever needed.

nailer 7y ago
Well yes, people who already pay for external cloud providers running k8s for little business value is a meme at this point. If you are creating a cloud provider though then you're very much welcome to use k8s.
q3k 7y ago
I'm somewhat sure you could make a similarly complicated looking chart that would entail: - using ping - sshing into a box - using ssh port forwarding - using ps aux - understanding system load - understanding oom killer messages - is this systemd? use systemctl, otherwise figure it out - is this systemd? use journalctl, otherwise figure out where an app is logging - is nginx running? what box is it running on? - is the nginx config okay? - what about haproxy? are health checks going through? Plus dealing with whatever configuration management system you're using, credential store you're using, etc. Kubernetes, while complex, does take over a huge chunk of responsibilities from existing deployments. As such, a large part of any debugging will be done via kubectl and on a much different level of abstraction than if you were dealing with individual machines and services deployed on them via Ansible. Yes, there's new things to learn. But for many cases (not even just scale!) it's quite worth it.
- base698 7y ago
  TBF a lot of people don't know what any of that is and use Heroku or equivalent. I've worked with people who don't even know how to use find or chmod, much less ps, htop, and other system tools.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Yep, and many of these projects are 10+ years old rock solid code that very rarely breaks and the failure scenarios are well understood (the only real exception is systemd). Can you tell the same about k8s?
vitalus 7y ago
I understand that Kubernetes is a complex project, but I struggle to see how this comment adds to the discourse. For those that do need a solution like Kubernetes, charts like this are helpful, and the knowledge requirements certainly aren't too steep relative to comparable platforms. What about Kubernetes makes it especially worth going in and commenting that you don't have a use case for it, in a thread dedicated to Kubernetes? Would you make similar comments about other platforms/libraries/technologies that you, for whatever reason, don't have a use case for?
- fheyfhth14353 7y ago
  Because echo chambers need their bubble's pierced every so often. Kubernetes is such garbage that no one runs it on their servers and if they do they have an army dedicated to managing it 24/7. Go to any company that's running it and ask them how they feel about it.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Because many people (including managers) take HN seriously and then go and try to implement or push for this being implemented because they read it on HN. Unfortunately they cannot go to HN when a outage explodes in their face, caused by an unknown problem in k8s. There is no clear value proposition for using k8s. It is trading time to figure out what would make the most sense for a project for black box complexity in most cases and that is a very bad deal. You pay the price once for the first one and all the time for the second one. If I do not comment here then you have a nice echo chamber that all fine and dandy with k8s and there is no downside at all using it. Btw. it is not only k8s and HN supposed to be a discussion site not a fanboy club of broken tech. I understand that the latter is much more appealing to many people.

Kamshak 7y ago

There are for sure a few concepts you need to learn with k8s, however I wonder if it would be much shorter if you did a guide like this for manually done / bash script powered / ansible deployments

organsnyder 7y ago
Every other large-ish product I've maintained would have a chart at least this large. Complex systems are complicated to maintain, regardless of platform.
- base698 7y ago
  You've worked on complex systems with charts? Most places I've worked lack charts and documentation. The flow chart only exists in pieces of the people's heads still working there, the rest in employees who left. That's one of the strengths with K8s, at least there is documentation, unlike a 1000 line perl script with no tests which does service discovery.
  - organsnyder 7y ago
    I said "would have a chart" not "had a chart". :-D Of course it wasn't properly documented. :-( I fully agree on that being a major strength of k8s. Looking at the resource manifests gives a ton of insight into how a system is supposed to function.
StreamBright 7y ago
> manually done / bash script powered / ansible deployments Sure but I am not comparing it against manually done / bash script powered / Ansible deployments. Even if I was the CI/CD pipeline would capture many of the problems early and than I have an immutable AMI with autoscaling groups that is very easy to debug, networking setup is super simple and load-balancing is also straightforward to troubleshoot. Cramming all of these into a simple project that is not as easy to debug is not worth the effort for us.
linsomniac 7y ago

kube-system 7y ago

It’s 11 commands to debug everything about an application deployment... from downloading the docker image all the way to debugging the load balancer. Most git cheat sheets have 3 times the number of commands. Most of the diamonds listed here aren’t things you have to remember, they’re statuses that are explicitly called out in the responses of those commands. This is an over-complicated chart that in reality is summed up as: look at the pod, look at the service, look at ingress.

markbnj 7y ago

> I guess I can just print this out and show to people any time somebody wants to move to k8s. A complete flow chart of all the possible states for any non-trivial thing appears complex. In practice the actual problems you run into are part of a much smaller set of possibilities.

StreamBright 7y ago
Yeah, but I also happened to run into production problems non of the k8s exports could fix or even pinpoint why it was happening.

fheyfhth14353 7y ago

Only sane response here and being downvoted to Oblivion.

StreamBright 7y ago
Well HN turned into this place where you cannot have a decent discussion anymore, there is the downvoter crew and if you dare to disagree with them they nuke your comments. Unfortunate.
- gouggoug 7y ago
  Well, it's not like the GP was trying to create a decent conversation in the first place; it wasn't and that's actually _why_ it's being downvoted.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    I guess it was too bad that I wanted to point out how bad is the complexity of k8s.
    - asdfggh123 7y ago
      I've stopped caring about anything related to a permanent handle. Say what you need to say with anonymous accounts. Turns out it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
    - madeuppoints 7y ago
      Because the points are made up and comments are a lousy signal of prestige. It's much better to make something and let the work speak for itself.