3 ms·

> Next thing is lack of utf-8 and TrueType fonts supports (I know there is XeTeX and LuaTeX) The two halves of that sentence seem to be in conflict. Could you

> Next thing is lack of utf-8 and TrueType fonts supports (I know there is XeTeX and LuaTeX) The two halves of that sentence seem to be in conflict. Could you say more?

elaus 7y ago
I think he does exactly that in the next part of the sentence (not in your quotation): > […] but today such features [should] be in very core of text system no in some software branch
- jimhefferon 7y ago
  OK, maybe he means that, but XeTeX and LuaTeX do have them at the core. Users use what they use, but the developers have for a decade worked to provide utf8-native and system font-enabled engines.
superfist 7y ago
I consider XeTeX and LuaTeX as branch from main software line LaTeX. Ech of them have some extra features I would like to see merged into one software. To use unicode I have to switch to XeTeX but it is not such simple transition, to have bibliography with unicode I need to use some other tool (like Biber) because Bibtex it is not unicode aware. And there is a lot of other exceptions/hacks like this where such basic scenarious should just work out of the box in XXI century but they are not.
- jimhefferon 7y ago
  > XeTeX and LuaTeX as branch from main software line LaTeX No, that is mistaken. As the FAQ says, "Development of pdfTeX has mostly stopped" https://texfaq.org/FAQ-enginedev https://texfaq.org/FAQ-enginedev, in favor of LuaTeX (and XeTeX maintanence). But users use what they use and the people who put together the distribution do not normally shut things down, so pdftex remains. (I admit I often use it.) I'm not much of a biblio person myself but I find that biblatex and biber work for me. I think I remember someone saying that they could use more developers, but in any event I'm sure that someone who volunteered to pitch in would be welcome. If a person would like to see some more development but does not have the energy or the skills then the best thing to do is to join a Users Group, such as TUG at https://www.tug.org/ https://www.tug.org/. Or you could simply make a contribution so that some developer could get funding.
- maxnoe 7y ago
  Just fully switch to lualatex/biber/biblatex. We are teaching this combination since 7 years now to physics students and I have been using it for nearly all documents I created. That includes bachelor and master thesis, dozens of beamer presentations and currently wip PhD thesis. Our (German) material ca be found here: https://toolbox.pep-dortmund.org https://toolbox.pep-dortmund.org Direct link to slides: https://toolbox.pep-dortmund.org/files/archive/latest/latex.pdf https://toolbox.pep-dortmund.org/files/archive/latest/latex....
  - jancsika 7y ago
    > Just fully switch to lualatex/biber/biblatex. Is pdfTex clearly labeled "do not use" and development has stopped completely? Also, do lualatex/biber/biblatex all have feature parity and are clearly documented as the "true" latex projects that are the only ones which should be used currently? If there weren't two "yes"'s in response then OP's clear criticism will remain a problem. It cannot be escaped by advising the user to jump to a different branch based off the last downside they happened to describe about their chosen branch. (E.g., "I want unicode" -> "use lualatex", "I want WYSIWYG" -> "use SwiftLatex", "But what about unicode" -> "use lualatex", ad infinitum)
    - maxnoe 7y ago
      TeX/LaTeX is a rich ecosystem that has grown over a long time. Over the last couple of years, pdftex, xetex and luatex have coexisted and pdftex was the stable choice and the other two were functional but in beta stage. In the last years, xe and luatex became stable and pdftex entered maintenance mode. WYSIWYG is an antithesis to LaTeX, but I'm sure it's possible to base something like SwiftLaTeX on luatex instead of pdftex. This has changed only in the last few years. You listed a few requirements, and while many are achievable using pdftex, only lualatex tikz all the boxes. * unicode out of the box * otf font support * unicode in bib via biber / biblatex * easy extensibility by writing lua instead of plain tex there is more. But only because luatex is out of beta, does not mean pdftex suddenly stops working or needs to be deprecated.

> Next thing is lack of utf-8 and TrueType fonts supports (I know there is XeTeX and LuaTeX) The two halves of that sentence seem to be in conflict. Could you say more?

elaus 7y ago

I think he does exactly that in the next part of the sentence (not in your quotation): > […] but today such features [should] be in very core of text system no in some software branch

jimhefferon 7y ago
OK, maybe he means that, but XeTeX and LuaTeX do have them at the core. Users use what they use, but the developers have for a decade worked to provide utf8-native and system font-enabled engines.

superfist 7y ago

I consider XeTeX and LuaTeX as branch from main software line LaTeX. Ech of them have some extra features I would like to see merged into one software. To use unicode I have to switch to XeTeX but it is not such simple transition, to have bibliography with unicode I need to use some other tool (like Biber) because Bibtex it is not unicode aware. And there is a lot of other exceptions/hacks like this where such basic scenarious should just work out of the box in XXI century but they are not.

jimhefferon 7y ago
> XeTeX and LuaTeX as branch from main software line LaTeX No, that is mistaken. As the FAQ says, "Development of pdfTeX has mostly stopped" https://texfaq.org/FAQ-enginedev https://texfaq.org/FAQ-enginedev, in favor of LuaTeX (and XeTeX maintanence). But users use what they use and the people who put together the distribution do not normally shut things down, so pdftex remains. (I admit I often use it.) I'm not much of a biblio person myself but I find that biblatex and biber work for me. I think I remember someone saying that they could use more developers, but in any event I'm sure that someone who volunteered to pitch in would be welcome. If a person would like to see some more development but does not have the energy or the skills then the best thing to do is to join a Users Group, such as TUG at https://www.tug.org/ https://www.tug.org/. Or you could simply make a contribution so that some developer could get funding.
maxnoe 7y ago
Just fully switch to lualatex/biber/biblatex. We are teaching this combination since 7 years now to physics students and I have been using it for nearly all documents I created. That includes bachelor and master thesis, dozens of beamer presentations and currently wip PhD thesis. Our (German) material ca be found here: https://toolbox.pep-dortmund.org https://toolbox.pep-dortmund.org Direct link to slides: https://toolbox.pep-dortmund.org/files/archive/latest/latex.pdf https://toolbox.pep-dortmund.org/files/archive/latest/latex....
- jancsika 7y ago
  > Just fully switch to lualatex/biber/biblatex. Is pdfTex clearly labeled "do not use" and development has stopped completely? Also, do lualatex/biber/biblatex all have feature parity and are clearly documented as the "true" latex projects that are the only ones which should be used currently? If there weren't two "yes"'s in response then OP's clear criticism will remain a problem. It cannot be escaped by advising the user to jump to a different branch based off the last downside they happened to describe about their chosen branch. (E.g., "I want unicode" -> "use lualatex", "I want WYSIWYG" -> "use SwiftLatex", "But what about unicode" -> "use lualatex", ad infinitum)
  - maxnoe 7y ago
    TeX/LaTeX is a rich ecosystem that has grown over a long time. Over the last couple of years, pdftex, xetex and luatex have coexisted and pdftex was the stable choice and the other two were functional but in beta stage. In the last years, xe and luatex became stable and pdftex entered maintenance mode. WYSIWYG is an antithesis to LaTeX, but I'm sure it's possible to base something like SwiftLaTeX on luatex instead of pdftex. This has changed only in the last few years. You listed a few requirements, and while many are achievable using pdftex, only lualatex tikz all the boxes. * unicode out of the box * otf font support * unicode in bib via biber / biblatex * easy extensibility by writing lua instead of plain tex there is more. But only because luatex is out of beta, does not mean pdftex suddenly stops working or needs to be deprecated.