14 ms·

How much of this nightmare happens in other 1st world countries? Does the adage "Never talk to the police" hold elsewhere/everywhere?

by air7 7y ago

jacquesm 7y ago
For the first, not so much, for the second, usually this is good advice but it depends on where you are how strict you'd have to apply it. America is fairly unique in that its justice system is so driven by money, but good lawyers are expensive everywhere.
- vidarh 7y ago
  Good lawyers are expensive, but e.g in Norway for example there are no dedicated public defenders - the state pays private criminal defense lawyers. Not everyone will sign up to it, but most high profile defence lawyers have, as the rates are generous enough. I refused military service (Norway has compulsory conscription for men) , and when the DOJ sued to get a declarative judgement that I was not entitled to do so, I got one of the best lawyers in the country appointed for free. The system still has lots of issues, but that part for the most part works very well in avoiding the issue of the prosecutors being able to bully people into submission. The lack of plea bargaining also helps, but that is contingent of first having good enough provisions for public defence.
pnako 7y ago
I remember a famous case in France where a guy spent 15 years before being released. He would have been sentenced to death a few years before, when death penalty was still in place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Dils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Dils There was another case, more recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreau_trial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreau_trial I suspect it happens in all countries (some more than others, probably). No human institution is perfect.
lm28469 7y ago
Depends if you consider the US to be a first world country or not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_i... When you read about the history of the prison / legal system in the US it makes sense though.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  the "first world" includes the US by definition.
blattimwind 7y ago
It absolutely can happen but I suspect the frequency is much lower compared to the US (just like being imprisoned in general is much less likely in most other countries). I would certainly hope so. Most high profile cases of wrongful conviction or almost-wrongful-convictions in Germany are sex crimes or connected to sex crimes with very little reliable evidence. > The cops don't want to sort anything out, they aren't on your side. They want to nail you. That's all they care about. They have a job to do. That job is to find someone to blame for this problem. So they're gonna do that. Police in a certain sense always wants to nail people after a crime has been committed. The difference is perhaps that US cops are more happy nailing any convenient person, while police elsewhere rather want to nail who actually did it, which of course does not mean they actually do. Apart from being directly connected to a serious investigation in which case it is probably most wise to consult a lawyer in any case, I don't have issues talking to the police, be it reporting something or asking for help. If people regard police as an oppressive force that better not be involved in things, that clearly suggests a big problem with the police.
- umvi 7y ago
  > The difference is perhaps that US cops are more happy nailing any convenient person, while police elsewhere rather want to nail who actually did it, which of course does not mean they actually do. This seems like gross assumption. I have no doubt there are plenty of genuinely good American cops who want to do what is right. But the bad cases of the entire nation float to the top of the newspapers/internet and give the impression that the whole country is this way. I've yet to see actual statistics of wrong imprisonment rates in the US vs. EU. And I'm sure if you broke if down by state you'd find some states have even better cops than EU.
  - blattimwind 7y ago
    It is always easy to think these things come down to individual's behaviour when systematic pressures and biases can play as big a role if not larger, e.g. pushing for arrest rates.
trampypizza 7y ago
It's not necessarily about wrongful convictions, though they are included, but I'd recommend reading a book called 'The Secret Barrister: Stories of the Law and How It's Broken'[1] if you were interested in some of the issues in the criminal justice system in the UK. Things have got so bad recently that criminal justice practitioners have actually been on strike a few times. [1] https://thesecretbarrister.com/ https://thesecretbarrister.com/
rootusrootus 7y ago
> Does the adage "Never talk to the police" hold elsewhere/everywhere? We have better protections in the US against self-incrimination than most other 1st world countries. In most other places I'd talk to a lawyer first but plan on talking to the police once I had counsel.
superkuh 7y ago
It happens in Japan much more often than it happens in the USA per capita. They have a 99% conviction rate so you know things are very messed up there. https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-court-explaining-japan%E2%80%99s-99-9-conviction-rate.html https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-c...
- throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
  That’s mostly misleading. Japan has a 99% conviction rate because its prosecution offices are too poor to pursue anything but the most clear cut cases. Edit: that’s noted in your link. But should probably be more upfront.

How much of this nightmare happens in other 1st world countries? Does the adage "Never talk to the police" hold elsewhere/everywhere?

by air7 7y ago

How much of this nightmare happens in other 1st world countries? Does the adage "Never talk to the police" hold elsewhere/everywhere?

jacquesm 7y ago

For the first, not so much, for the second, usually this is good advice but it depends on where you are how strict you'd have to apply it. America is fairly unique in that its justice system is so driven by money, but good lawyers are expensive everywhere.

vidarh 7y ago
Good lawyers are expensive, but e.g in Norway for example there are no dedicated public defenders - the state pays private criminal defense lawyers. Not everyone will sign up to it, but most high profile defence lawyers have, as the rates are generous enough. I refused military service (Norway has compulsory conscription for men) , and when the DOJ sued to get a declarative judgement that I was not entitled to do so, I got one of the best lawyers in the country appointed for free. The system still has lots of issues, but that part for the most part works very well in avoiding the issue of the prosecutors being able to bully people into submission. The lack of plea bargaining also helps, but that is contingent of first having good enough provisions for public defence.

pnako 7y ago

I remember a famous case in France where a guy spent 15 years before being released. He would have been sentenced to death a few years before, when death penalty was still in place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Dils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Dils There was another case, more recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreau_trial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreau_trial I suspect it happens in all countries (some more than others, probably). No human institution is perfect.

lm28469 7y ago

Depends if you consider the US to be a first world country or not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_i... When you read about the history of the prison / legal system in the US it makes sense though.

leetcrew 7y ago
the "first world" includes the US by definition.

blattimwind 7y ago

It absolutely can happen but I suspect the frequency is much lower compared to the US (just like being imprisoned in general is much less likely in most other countries). I would certainly hope so. Most high profile cases of wrongful conviction or almost-wrongful-convictions in Germany are sex crimes or connected to sex crimes with very little reliable evidence. > The cops don't want to sort anything out, they aren't on your side. They want to nail you. That's all they care about. They have a job to do. That job is to find someone to blame for this problem. So they're gonna do that. Police in a certain sense always wants to nail people after a crime has been committed. The difference is perhaps that US cops are more happy nailing any convenient person, while police elsewhere rather want to nail who actually did it, which of course does not mean they actually do. Apart from being directly connected to a serious investigation in which case it is probably most wise to consult a lawyer in any case, I don't have issues talking to the police, be it reporting something or asking for help. If people regard police as an oppressive force that better not be involved in things, that clearly suggests a big problem with the police.

umvi 7y ago
> The difference is perhaps that US cops are more happy nailing any convenient person, while police elsewhere rather want to nail who actually did it, which of course does not mean they actually do. This seems like gross assumption. I have no doubt there are plenty of genuinely good American cops who want to do what is right. But the bad cases of the entire nation float to the top of the newspapers/internet and give the impression that the whole country is this way. I've yet to see actual statistics of wrong imprisonment rates in the US vs. EU. And I'm sure if you broke if down by state you'd find some states have even better cops than EU.
- blattimwind 7y ago
  It is always easy to think these things come down to individual's behaviour when systematic pressures and biases can play as big a role if not larger, e.g. pushing for arrest rates.

trampypizza 7y ago

It's not necessarily about wrongful convictions, though they are included, but I'd recommend reading a book called 'The Secret Barrister: Stories of the Law and How It's Broken'[1] if you were interested in some of the issues in the criminal justice system in the UK. Things have got so bad recently that criminal justice practitioners have actually been on strike a few times. [1] https://thesecretbarrister.com/ https://thesecretbarrister.com/

rootusrootus 7y ago

> Does the adage "Never talk to the police" hold elsewhere/everywhere? We have better protections in the US against self-incrimination than most other 1st world countries. In most other places I'd talk to a lawyer first but plan on talking to the police once I had counsel.

superkuh 7y ago

It happens in Japan much more often than it happens in the USA per capita. They have a 99% conviction rate so you know things are very messed up there. https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-court-explaining-japan%E2%80%99s-99-9-conviction-rate.html https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-c...

throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
That’s mostly misleading. Japan has a 99% conviction rate because its prosecution offices are too poor to pursue anything but the most clear cut cases. Edit: that’s noted in your link. But should probably be more upfront.