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As a Spanish person, I can confirm that average English proficiency in Spain is poor in absolute terms. It has often been reported to be the country that speaks

As a Spanish person, I can confirm that average English proficiency in Spain is poor in absolute terms. It has often been reported to be the country that speaks English worst in the EU, and it may very well be (although the French also deserve a honorable mention). But I find the claim that it has been declining since 2014 very difficult to believe, to say the least. English is studied in primary school, which wasn't the case 20 years ago, let alone 50, so young people all have at least a minimal level whereas most people that are now passing away don't speak any English at all. This alone should be an important factor pushing average proficiency up. The coming of Netflix, HBO and their ilk in the last few years have made viewing TV series in English much more common (regular TV typically only offers dubbed versions). I teach at a university in English, ten years ago we didn't even offer that possibility and now demand is steadily increasing. OK, I don't have actual data, they do... but given the limitations of their data (acknowledged in the piece itself), I'm taking it with a huge grain of salt.

ksec 7y ago
Exactly. 20 years ago not many in Spain and France ( or even Germany ) would speak any English. May be they do, but may be they were too afraid, or refuse to speak as in the case of French. 20 years later literally everybody in ( Western ) Europe speaks English. I could go on the street and ask for directions, in places that are not cities or tourist attraction. Even the French. They may not be proficient at it, but they do understand and can do basic communication. So I dont see any decline. And Thinking back I am surprised at how fast the world has evolved! ( Which also means I am getting old .... )
laurentb 7y ago
having done business with all Spanish/Italian/French businesses, I can guarantee you that nothing comes close to Italians as far as poor english
- gpderetta 7y ago
  Our English is so bad that we make fun of our own ineptitude ourselves.
  - narag 7y ago
    That also happens in Spain. A bad joke that requires a little work if you can't speak Spanish: - Advanced English School? - If if, between between.
    - wazoox 7y ago
      Also works in French :)
    - Shorel 7y ago
      It's so bad I sent it to all my friends.
- babayega2 7y ago
  Joined this summer an international organization in Rome, Italy. I was quite surprised by the quality of the English skills in here. Like,... In our African countries, not knowing English/French is a question of whether you want to live a miserable life or no. Like, we have kids who failed their studies for just 45 hours of English practice each year starting grade 6. I think that's the key difference between countries: some are compelled to be proficient in English because it is a necessity in order to get a descent life. Some sees it as just a need to compete. I really understand. It might be also difficult for a great civilization like the Italian one to admit that they need to adapt to other civilization, speak English, adopt this language in order to express their ideas ...
  - pmontra 7y ago
    Italian here. I don't think pride is the reason. We may be proud of our food but we use any language we need, even without knowing it. I guess many people had experiences with Italians delusional about their English skills. The point probably is that those people don't need English in their life so they never invest in learning it.
narag 7y ago
English is studied in primary school, which wasn't the case 20 years ago... That's tricky. Years ago primary extended from 1st to 8th grades (6 to 14 y.o. aprox.) so English, that started in 6th was primary. Now 6th to 8th have been moved to ESO. Anyway I just checked with my son and he started in Infantil, so it's really soon. The real issue is qualification. To really understand and speak English you need to learn pronuntiation properly. And that's the weakest link in our system. Most teachers have no idea how English is really pronounced and wouldn't be able to understand a native speaker to save their lives. It's impossible to learn English from someone that can't understand or speak it. I believe it was Aguirre that proposed a plan to invite thousands of native speakers to teach English in Madrid. Of course everybody attacked her as usual whatever she says... I don't like her either, but that was a good idea for once.
- ricw 7y ago
  This! The reason Germany has a high level of proficiency for a country that doesn’t translate media (movies, tv shows etc don’t act as language learning agent), it has a deep and well trained set of teachers. How? Famously the last German emperor insisted that every kid learn English in school. Over 100 years later and this has lead to well trained teachers, who can teach kids properly. I guess the take away is that teaching a whole country a new language takes time and is hard to accelerate.
  - narag 7y ago
    It's more general than for learning a language. For a whole country, teaching quality is a virtuous circle, you can't simply put a lot of money and expect inmediate results, but need to iterate through generations. That's why I think importing a lot of native speakers was a good idea: you can step ahead iterations.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Sweden started after WW2 and it is way ahead of Germany. So I’d say it is possible to accelerate. I think English really started to take hold in the 60s and 70s. Relatively low educated people born in the 1950s can make themselves understood in a pinch
Arete314159 7y ago
If an American or Brit has passable Spanish, but (of course) excellent English skills, would this help them in the Spanish job market? Assuming of course they could get an appropriate visa?
- Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
  I suppose you mean in the tech job market? Sure, I think it would help and it would be easy for them to find jobs. Although an American or Brit would find the salaries here very low, and work hours (at least in most companies) too long. Many Spanish tech graduates do the reverse, migrating to the UK (or, to a lesser extent, the US) for better salaries and conditions. Although Brexit is making many of those who went to the UK return or migrate elsewhere.
  - Arete314159 7y ago
    Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry to hear the hours are so long. My family is Spanish-American and whenever we try to accomplish anything bureaucratic from the US, it's impossible and takes forever, as I'm sure you know. I guess I hoped that the culture that makes things impossible to get done was because people were working shorter hours and had an easier work life? Now I'm really confused. Or is it that bureaucratic Spain works short hours and other workers do long hours?
    - Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
      The latter is quite close to reality, indeed. State and regional bureaucracy offices typically open only 5 hours, from 9 to 14 (their workers work some more, but typically no more than 7.5 hours in theory, and probably less in practice) which makes them really inconvenient as you typically have to split your workday to go. And in many of those they work very, um... relaxedly. With long coffee breaks, smoking breaks, random breaks... but it's something specific of these workers, the rest of Spain doesn't generally work like that. Bureaucracy is actually the single thing I hate most about Spain. I'm a professor at a university and the sheer amount of bureaucracy is staggering, asphyxiating at times. In fact it's a relevant factor making me work longer than I should as too much time is spent dealing with that. In industry most people don't have to deal with much bureaucracy, though, unless they're company owners or self-employed. In industry, people tend to work long hours: there is still a culture of presentialism with remote work being frowned upon in many companies, suboptimal traditional work timetables with a long lunch break make many people return home way too late, and the threat of unemployment (not so much in the tech sector) and the need for money in an economy with modest salaries and high housing prices makes workers accept lots of (paid or sometimes unpaid) overtime. If you're seriously considering moving, maybe it's a matter of being selective (supposing you can search while holding your current job) and taking time to find a company with more modern ways, that doesn't value presentialism and overtime. There is a growing minority of companies like that. If you mention these things as priorities in interviews, companies that want workers in their posts until late in the evening will probably filter themselves out. If you do score a good company that allows for work-life balance and provides a good salary for Spanish standards (even if it's low for American standards), quality of life in Spain is excellent. Good climate in most places, good public healthcare, amazing and relatively cheap food both in supermarkets and restaurants, good bars and nightlife, nice natural landscapes and hiking places (especially in the north), decent public transport (not stellar compared to e.g. Germany but much better than in America) and in most cities you can go outside at 3 am and feel safe walking in 90% of the city (100% in some). I have had offers to work in America for several times my salary here and haven't even considered them.
somberi 7y ago
I have visited Spain a few times over the last 20 years. I do not speak Spanish and I try to get by speaking English (these are few days at a time visit, and not long term stay). From this one man's experience, it is not that Spain has regressed in its proficiency with English, but I find that other southern European countries (particularly Portugal) has upped the ante - a LOT. To compare Paris (I understand it does not represent all of France, but it is one view point), 20 years ago I would have difficult time in ordering in a restaurant. A hardship many English-speaking visitors today will find hard to empathize with. In most places in Paris today I can get by with English and get complex transactions done. Portugal has truly baked-in English proficiency into their national psyche now. Zealotry aside, this enables Portugal to further their economic and cultural interests more, I think.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  > these are few days at a time visit, and not long term stay > it is not that Spain has regressed in its proficiency with English I'm not sure your multi-day vacations give you enough insight to debunk the study in TFA which says it indeed has regressed.
- vidarh 7y ago
  > In most places in Paris today I can get by with English and get complex transactions done. First times I went to France (90's), there were people I met who genuinely did not understand English at all - even simple words -, and I had shopkeepers who, when my stumbling French was also insufficient, pulled strangers off the street to translate, and at least in smaller towns it sometimes took multiple tries to find someone. By my last few trips it'd become hard to practice my French because people switch to English the moment I stumble in French...
- Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
  I agree, it sounds plausible to me that Spain has fallen back in relative terms because neighboring countries have been more successful in improving their English. However, the linked article implies that English proficiency in Spain has declined in absolute terms, which is what I find difficult to believe.
WalterBright 7y ago
When I visited a customer in Finland, I noticed that everyone in the office spoke English to each other. I asked if they were just being courteous since I was there. They laughed, and said no, the employees came from all over the world and English was the only language they had in common.

ksec 7y ago

Exactly. 20 years ago not many in Spain and France ( or even Germany ) would speak any English. May be they do, but may be they were too afraid, or refuse to speak as in the case of French. 20 years later literally everybody in ( Western ) Europe speaks English. I could go on the street and ask for directions, in places that are not cities or tourist attraction. Even the French. They may not be proficient at it, but they do understand and can do basic communication. So I dont see any decline. And Thinking back I am surprised at how fast the world has evolved! ( Which also means I am getting old .... )

laurentb 7y ago

having done business with all Spanish/Italian/French businesses, I can guarantee you that nothing comes close to Italians as far as poor english

gpderetta 7y ago
Our English is so bad that we make fun of our own ineptitude ourselves.
- narag 7y ago
  That also happens in Spain. A bad joke that requires a little work if you can't speak Spanish: - Advanced English School? - If if, between between.
  - wazoox 7y ago
    Also works in French :)
  - Shorel 7y ago
    It's so bad I sent it to all my friends.
babayega2 7y ago
Joined this summer an international organization in Rome, Italy. I was quite surprised by the quality of the English skills in here. Like,... In our African countries, not knowing English/French is a question of whether you want to live a miserable life or no. Like, we have kids who failed their studies for just 45 hours of English practice each year starting grade 6. I think that's the key difference between countries: some are compelled to be proficient in English because it is a necessity in order to get a descent life. Some sees it as just a need to compete. I really understand. It might be also difficult for a great civilization like the Italian one to admit that they need to adapt to other civilization, speak English, adopt this language in order to express their ideas ...
- pmontra 7y ago
  Italian here. I don't think pride is the reason. We may be proud of our food but we use any language we need, even without knowing it. I guess many people had experiences with Italians delusional about their English skills. The point probably is that those people don't need English in their life so they never invest in learning it.

narag 7y ago

English is studied in primary school, which wasn't the case 20 years ago... That's tricky. Years ago primary extended from 1st to 8th grades (6 to 14 y.o. aprox.) so English, that started in 6th was primary. Now 6th to 8th have been moved to ESO. Anyway I just checked with my son and he started in Infantil, so it's really soon. The real issue is qualification. To really understand and speak English you need to learn pronuntiation properly. And that's the weakest link in our system. Most teachers have no idea how English is really pronounced and wouldn't be able to understand a native speaker to save their lives. It's impossible to learn English from someone that can't understand or speak it. I believe it was Aguirre that proposed a plan to invite thousands of native speakers to teach English in Madrid. Of course everybody attacked her as usual whatever she says... I don't like her either, but that was a good idea for once.

ricw 7y ago
This! The reason Germany has a high level of proficiency for a country that doesn’t translate media (movies, tv shows etc don’t act as language learning agent), it has a deep and well trained set of teachers. How? Famously the last German emperor insisted that every kid learn English in school. Over 100 years later and this has lead to well trained teachers, who can teach kids properly. I guess the take away is that teaching a whole country a new language takes time and is hard to accelerate.
- narag 7y ago
  It's more general than for learning a language. For a whole country, teaching quality is a virtuous circle, you can't simply put a lot of money and expect inmediate results, but need to iterate through generations. That's why I think importing a lot of native speakers was a good idea: you can step ahead iterations.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Sweden started after WW2 and it is way ahead of Germany. So I’d say it is possible to accelerate. I think English really started to take hold in the 60s and 70s. Relatively low educated people born in the 1950s can make themselves understood in a pinch

Arete314159 7y ago

If an American or Brit has passable Spanish, but (of course) excellent English skills, would this help them in the Spanish job market? Assuming of course they could get an appropriate visa?

Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
I suppose you mean in the tech job market? Sure, I think it would help and it would be easy for them to find jobs. Although an American or Brit would find the salaries here very low, and work hours (at least in most companies) too long. Many Spanish tech graduates do the reverse, migrating to the UK (or, to a lesser extent, the US) for better salaries and conditions. Although Brexit is making many of those who went to the UK return or migrate elsewhere.
- Arete314159 7y ago
  Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry to hear the hours are so long. My family is Spanish-American and whenever we try to accomplish anything bureaucratic from the US, it's impossible and takes forever, as I'm sure you know. I guess I hoped that the culture that makes things impossible to get done was because people were working shorter hours and had an easier work life? Now I'm really confused. Or is it that bureaucratic Spain works short hours and other workers do long hours?
  - Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
    The latter is quite close to reality, indeed. State and regional bureaucracy offices typically open only 5 hours, from 9 to 14 (their workers work some more, but typically no more than 7.5 hours in theory, and probably less in practice) which makes them really inconvenient as you typically have to split your workday to go. And in many of those they work very, um... relaxedly. With long coffee breaks, smoking breaks, random breaks... but it's something specific of these workers, the rest of Spain doesn't generally work like that. Bureaucracy is actually the single thing I hate most about Spain. I'm a professor at a university and the sheer amount of bureaucracy is staggering, asphyxiating at times. In fact it's a relevant factor making me work longer than I should as too much time is spent dealing with that. In industry most people don't have to deal with much bureaucracy, though, unless they're company owners or self-employed. In industry, people tend to work long hours: there is still a culture of presentialism with remote work being frowned upon in many companies, suboptimal traditional work timetables with a long lunch break make many people return home way too late, and the threat of unemployment (not so much in the tech sector) and the need for money in an economy with modest salaries and high housing prices makes workers accept lots of (paid or sometimes unpaid) overtime. If you're seriously considering moving, maybe it's a matter of being selective (supposing you can search while holding your current job) and taking time to find a company with more modern ways, that doesn't value presentialism and overtime. There is a growing minority of companies like that. If you mention these things as priorities in interviews, companies that want workers in their posts until late in the evening will probably filter themselves out. If you do score a good company that allows for work-life balance and provides a good salary for Spanish standards (even if it's low for American standards), quality of life in Spain is excellent. Good climate in most places, good public healthcare, amazing and relatively cheap food both in supermarkets and restaurants, good bars and nightlife, nice natural landscapes and hiking places (especially in the north), decent public transport (not stellar compared to e.g. Germany but much better than in America) and in most cities you can go outside at 3 am and feel safe walking in 90% of the city (100% in some). I have had offers to work in America for several times my salary here and haven't even considered them.

somberi 7y ago

I have visited Spain a few times over the last 20 years. I do not speak Spanish and I try to get by speaking English (these are few days at a time visit, and not long term stay). From this one man's experience, it is not that Spain has regressed in its proficiency with English, but I find that other southern European countries (particularly Portugal) has upped the ante - a LOT. To compare Paris (I understand it does not represent all of France, but it is one view point), 20 years ago I would have difficult time in ordering in a restaurant. A hardship many English-speaking visitors today will find hard to empathize with. In most places in Paris today I can get by with English and get complex transactions done. Portugal has truly baked-in English proficiency into their national psyche now. Zealotry aside, this enables Portugal to further their economic and cultural interests more, I think.

hombre_fatal 7y ago
> these are few days at a time visit, and not long term stay > it is not that Spain has regressed in its proficiency with English I'm not sure your multi-day vacations give you enough insight to debunk the study in TFA which says it indeed has regressed.
vidarh 7y ago
> In most places in Paris today I can get by with English and get complex transactions done. First times I went to France (90's), there were people I met who genuinely did not understand English at all - even simple words -, and I had shopkeepers who, when my stumbling French was also insufficient, pulled strangers off the street to translate, and at least in smaller towns it sometimes took multiple tries to find someone. By my last few trips it'd become hard to practice my French because people switch to English the moment I stumble in French...
Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
I agree, it sounds plausible to me that Spain has fallen back in relative terms because neighboring countries have been more successful in improving their English. However, the linked article implies that English proficiency in Spain has declined in absolute terms, which is what I find difficult to believe.

WalterBright 7y ago

When I visited a customer in Finland, I noticed that everyone in the office spoke English to each other. I asked if they were just being courteous since I was there. They laughed, and said no, the employees came from all over the world and English was the only language they had in common.